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Around SBN: Despite Relocation Drama, Coyotes Overcome Adversity

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Someone requested this in a Curious Index, and I have decided to provide. Here is the OFFICIAL EDSBS A Song of Ice And Fire spoiler thread! Have after it! Discuss ALL. THE. DEATHS.

WARNING: DO NOT READ THIS THREAD IF YOU HAVE NOT READ ALL THE BOOKS!

4 months ago Img_0023_tiny AUTigerGSUEagle 455 comments 3 recs  | 

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Hmmm,

I’m only 1/4 tthrough Storm of Swords. I should probably sit this one out, yes?

I am in favor of no sport which puts a stick in the hands of an Irishman - K.K.R.

by saxattack29 on Jan 30, 2012 1:51 PM EST reply actions  

i'd say so.

it got… interesting.

_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
GTHTSUN
I know can spel well

by CoastalCowbell on Jan 30, 2012 1:53 PM EST up reply actions  

Yeah. I guess I should have emphasized that you shouldn't come here

if you haven’t finished the whole series of books.

Trying to kill as many Kerbals as Craig James has (allegedly) hookers.

by AUTigerGSUEagle on Jan 30, 2012 1:53 PM EST up reply actions  

Yes, definitely.

@amathews29: All hail Gustafson, Viking lord of Omaha!

Twitterz

by T-Jax, Field General on Jan 30, 2012 1:55 PM EST up reply actions  

definitely sit it out

He who rides a tiger cannot dismount

by Irishjugg on Jan 30, 2012 2:06 PM EST up reply actions  

Yes definitely sit it out. And I'm going to self reply a bunch to push down a spoilerfiffic comment below.

@papaalphakilo
The people who suggest Brian Kelly should not curse are the reason the rest of us created profanities. - Spencer Hall

by PAK on Jan 30, 2012 3:35 PM EST up reply actions  

Nothing to see here. Just protecting innocents who might wander in here accidentally.

@papaalphakilo
The people who suggest Brian Kelly should not curse are the reason the rest of us created profanities. - Spencer Hall

by PAK on Jan 30, 2012 3:35 PM EST up reply actions  

Not a bad idea

@amathews29: All hail Gustafson, Viking lord of Omaha!

Twitterz

by T-Jax, Field General on Jan 30, 2012 3:35 PM EST up reply actions  

I was thinking more along the lines of Qyburn.

@papaalphakilo
The people who suggest Brian Kelly should not curse are the reason the rest of us created profanities. - Spencer Hall

by PAK on Jan 30, 2012 3:37 PM EST up reply actions  

Fair.

@amathews29: All hail Gustafson, Viking lord of Omaha!

Twitterz

by T-Jax, Field General on Jan 30, 2012 3:40 PM EST up reply actions  

Speaking of which...

FRANKENGREGOR.

Trying to kill as many Kerbals as Craig James has (allegedly) hookers.

by AUTigerGSUEagle on Jan 30, 2012 3:43 PM EST up reply actions  

Well, duh.

wiki of ice and fire has some interesting theories on Ser Robert Strong. Apparently there’s a Bran vision in GoT that was somewhat indicative of a giant knight with no head.

@amathews29: All hail Gustafson, Viking lord of Omaha!

Twitterz

by T-Jax, Field General on Jan 30, 2012 3:44 PM EST up reply actions  

Which is why GoT especially is such a fascinating re-read.

@papaalphakilo
The people who suggest Brian Kelly should not curse are the reason the rest of us created profanities. - Spencer Hall

by PAK on Jan 30, 2012 3:47 PM EST up reply actions  

oh?

He who rides a tiger cannot dismount

by Irishjugg on Jan 30, 2012 3:54 PM EST up reply actions  

quote within from a Bran vision while he was comatose

“There were shadows all around them. One Shadow was dark as ash, with the terrible face of a hound, Another was armored like the sun, golden and beautiful. Over them loomed a Giant in armor made of stone, but when he opened his visor there was nothing inside but darkness and thick black blood.”

Respectively, Sandor, Oberyn Martell and Gregor/Robert Strong

@amathews29: All hail Gustafson, Viking lord of Omaha!

Twitterz

by T-Jax, Field General on Jan 30, 2012 3:57 PM EST up reply actions  

Man...Oberyn Martell got killed off way too quickly.

"Every time you go to that cook-off you get drunk as a poet on payday!"

by DrewRusse on Jan 30, 2012 3:58 PM EST up reply actions  

That was a shame.

He had some serious potential. The Martells are an interesting lot. Sad to see both the Red Viper and then Quentin stuff it so quickly.

Trying to kill as many Kerbals as Craig James has (allegedly) hookers.

by AUTigerGSUEagle on Jan 30, 2012 4:00 PM EST up reply actions  

agreed

He who rides a tiger cannot dismount

by Irishjugg on Jan 30, 2012 4:16 PM EST up reply actions  

We are dropping major spoilage in the subthread to push down the spoiler below.

I can see that referring to the Viper, it could also very well refer to Jaime. He was fond of golden armor as well.

@papaalphakilo
The people who suggest Brian Kelly should not curse are the reason the rest of us created profanities. - Spencer Hall

by PAK on Jan 30, 2012 3:59 PM EST up reply actions  

I had already forgotten

that the purpose of this was to push the major spoilage further down.

Trying to kill as many Kerbals as Craig James has (allegedly) hookers.

by AUTigerGSUEagle on Jan 30, 2012 4:00 PM EST up reply actions  

Eh, this isn't nearly as bad as the spoiler below

And this is actual discussion, not gratuitous spoiler for sake of spoiler.

As for speculation on Jaime, the reference to being armored like the sun makes me think of House Martell.

And the last part seems to be a clear bridge between Gregor and Strong. Remember, Oberyn’s poison made his blood turn black. And allegedly his skull was sent to the Martells.

@amathews29: All hail Gustafson, Viking lord of Omaha!

Twitterz

by T-Jax, Field General on Jan 30, 2012 4:35 PM EST up reply actions  

I thought it was Gregor's skull sent to the Martells

Or at least a giant freaking skull. That’s how they knew he was “dead.”

Trying to kill as many Kerbals as Craig James has (allegedly) hookers.

by AUTigerGSUEagle on Jan 30, 2012 4:42 PM EST up reply actions  

errrr, bad pronouning is bad

By “his” I meant Gregor. But that’s quite unclear from the sentence.

@amathews29: All hail Gustafson, Viking lord of Omaha!

Twitterz

by T-Jax, Field General on Jan 30, 2012 4:43 PM EST up reply actions  

It's more clear the second time when I really read the sentence

than it was the first read-through. I can see how you were saying Gregor’s now. It should have been clear from “Oberyn’s poison made his blood turn black” since it’s obvious that Oberyn wouldn’t be trying to use his own poison on himself.

Trying to kill as many Kerbals as Craig James has (allegedly) hookers.

by AUTigerGSUEagle on Jan 30, 2012 4:45 PM EST up reply actions  

In any case, it's an interesting find.

Especially given the massive space between the two references.

@amathews29: All hail Gustafson, Viking lord of Omaha!

Twitterz

by T-Jax, Field General on Jan 30, 2012 4:47 PM EST up reply actions  

Yep. I never would have made the connection.

But it’s obvious GRRM had something planned for the Martells for a long time. It just took a while before they really began playing a part in the story.

Trying to kill as many Kerbals as Craig James has (allegedly) hookers.

by AUTigerGSUEagle on Jan 30, 2012 4:48 PM EST up reply actions  

I've read through the first four books three times now

and still don’t catch stuff like that. Only read DwD once, so far.

Trying to kill as many Kerbals as Craig James has (allegedly) hookers.

by AUTigerGSUEagle on Jan 30, 2012 4:51 PM EST up reply actions  

True.

And now there’s even a Targaryen in the mix with them to make things even more fun. The interesting part of all of that is that this kid (if he’s really a Targaryen) would be ahead of Dany in the line of succession.

Trying to kill as many Kerbals as Craig James has (allegedly) hookers.

by AUTigerGSUEagle on Jan 30, 2012 5:10 PM EST up reply actions  

The Martells, the Sellswords, and the Vale.

Those are the 3 major armies left in Westeros. Dany will, presumably, have an army of some sort but she has yet to really go anywhere.

As for their strength I’d put them in the order of my title.

@papaalphakilo
The people who suggest Brian Kelly should not curse are the reason the rest of us created profanities. - Spencer Hall

by PAK on Jan 31, 2012 9:27 AM EST up reply actions  

I was calling Golden Company 'sellswords'

I had forgotten the name. It has been a bit since I read the book and I forget a lot of details like that. Good for rereads, not so good for discussion purposes.

@papaalphakilo
The people who suggest Brian Kelly should not curse are the reason the rest of us created profanities. - Spencer Hall

by PAK on Jan 31, 2012 10:17 AM EST up reply actions  

Wouldn't Jon Snow's wildling army count as an army?

I mean, he needed one from somewhere and finally got one since I doubt he’ll be back with the Night’s Watch (if there is a Night’s Watch).

by Neodymium on Feb 1, 2012 4:43 PM EST up reply actions  

Frey the Headswitcher

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GTHTSUN
I know can spel well

by CoastalCowbell on Jan 30, 2012 2:11 PM EST up reply actions  

Actually, I've only gotten through the first 3 books myself...

… so I’ll bow out at this point, too, before reading further in the thread.

I have to admit that after pooh-pooh’ing cliffhangers, though, I might have audibly gasped aloud when I realized Littlefinger was behind it all and about to kill Lysa.

Editor, Dawg Sports.

Go Dawgs!

by vineyarddawg on Jan 30, 2012 2:14 PM EST up reply actions  

Are we allowed to rec things in here?

Good, ’cause I did.

Anyone else think the whole “Lysa had an aborted baby” was a nod toward someone else who might have been a failed abortion and came out a dwarf? And possibly a bastard dwarf at that?

by Neodymium on Feb 1, 2012 4:44 PM EST up reply actions  

Little Finger

is responsible for Jon Arryn’s death, and in some way, shape, form or fashion probably the vast majority of bad shit that has happened since then.

Trying to kill as many Kerbals as Craig James has (allegedly) hookers.

by AUTigerGSUEagle on Jan 30, 2012 1:51 PM EST reply actions  

Re-watching the Wire right now

Just finished Season 3. The Carcetti/Littlefinger crossover effect is strong.

@amathews29: All hail Gustafson, Viking lord of Omaha!

Twitterz

by T-Jax, Field General on Jan 30, 2012 2:07 PM EST up reply actions  

More accurate than my observation.

It’s just weird to hear him with the Baltimore accent again.
I keep expecting him to remind Daniels that he wasn’t to be trusted.

@amathews29: All hail Gustafson, Viking lord of Omaha!

Twitterz

by T-Jax, Field General on Jan 30, 2012 2:11 PM EST up reply actions  

holy shit thats what it was

I didnt notice… but I felt odd the whole time I saw Carcetti

He who rides a tiger cannot dismount

by Irishjugg on Jan 30, 2012 2:13 PM EST up reply actions  

right

I spaced pretty bad on that one

He who rides a tiger cannot dismount

by Irishjugg on Feb 2, 2012 11:21 AM EST up reply actions  

He's definitely been running the long con

And doing quite well for the most part. However, I think he’s sat out of it too much lately and by the time he tries to get back in, he’s going to realize it’s spiraled beyond his control.

Trying to kill as many Kerbals as Craig James has (allegedly) hookers.

by AUTigerGSUEagle on Jan 30, 2012 2:08 PM EST up reply actions  

The Vale stuff is what I most excited for in the next book

You know Littlefinger’s got something good cooking up.

"Every time you go to that cook-off you get drunk as a poet on payday!"

by DrewRusse on Jan 30, 2012 2:12 PM EST up reply actions  

Is there Vale stuff coming in?

I thought that thread was effectively over and abandoned.

by Chris Pendley on Jan 30, 2012 8:10 PM EST up reply actions  

Littlefinger's plots with Sansa marrying Harry the Heir

and retaking the North are still to come.

Trying to kill as many Kerbals as Craig James has (allegedly) hookers.

by AUTigerGSUEagle on Jan 30, 2012 8:11 PM EST up reply actions  

But then ruined when everyone realizes that the Lords of the North legitmized Jon Snow.

I know Martin is too smart to forget about this little bit. It has to come back up at some point.

by Neodymium on Feb 1, 2012 4:46 PM EST up reply actions  

Wyman Manderly is, I believe

And serving up Frey-pie. Though I’m not sure he was there when they legitimized Jon.

Trying to kill as many Kerbals as Craig James has (allegedly) hookers.

by AUTigerGSUEagle on Feb 1, 2012 10:29 PM EST up reply actions  

Don't forget the Greatjon

The consensus seems to be that he’s alive, but being held by the Freys or Lannisters.

"Every time you go to that cook-off you get drunk as a poet on payday!"

by DrewRusse on Feb 2, 2012 8:10 AM EST up reply actions  

Yeah, but I'm pretty sure they sided with

Roose Bolton, didn’t they?

Trying to kill as many Kerbals as Craig James has (allegedly) hookers.

by AUTigerGSUEagle on Feb 2, 2012 2:18 PM EST up reply actions  

That's what I remember.

I’m stuck in an infinite Wiki of Ice and Fire loop right now, I’m sure I’ll stumble on them eventually.

@amathews29: All hail Gustafson, Viking lord of Omaha!

Twitterz

by T-Jax, Field General on Feb 2, 2012 2:27 PM EST up reply actions  

they might have sided with the Boltons

But so did Manderly long enough to get his son back.

And they all sided with Stark at one point. If nothing else, we’ve seen how quickly and fickle these people are. With Tywin dead, would the Spicers and such even swear for the North again with a “legtimized Stark” on the throne who has Targaryan blood in his veins?

by Neodymium on Feb 2, 2012 3:16 PM EST up reply actions  

didnt they all just get iced in the WoW preview that someone posted downthread?

I cant check for a few minutes but I thought htat was Arnolf Karhold nad his boys

He who rides a tiger cannot dismount

by Irishjugg on Feb 2, 2012 3:19 PM EST up reply actions  

It could be.

I know a lot of the Karstarks are dead. Mostly because Robb had to be honorable and a) give the command on the Green Fork to Roose Bolton and b) because he felt he needed to set right what Lord Rickard did to the Lannister kids.

Oh, and by the way…how many fucking Lannister uncles are going to keep showing up? You’d think the one who sailed to Valyria would have been mentioned at some point earlier in the game.

by Neodymium on Feb 2, 2012 3:21 PM EST up reply actions  

When did this happen?

I thought Stanis offered to legitimize him but that didnt occur

He who rides a tiger cannot dismount

by Irishjugg on Feb 2, 2012 11:21 AM EST up reply actions  

That's my recollection too

@amathews29: All hail Gustafson, Viking lord of Omaha!

Twitterz

by T-Jax, Field General on Feb 2, 2012 11:27 AM EST up reply actions  

I believe the reference is to Robb signing a proclamation legitimizing Jon

that Jon is unaware of. I remember it being discussed at one point in the book, because Catelyn was (obviously) very much against it, but I can’t remember what the final result was.

Trying to kill as many Kerbals as Craig James has (allegedly) hookers.

by AUTigerGSUEagle on Feb 2, 2012 11:38 AM EST up reply actions  

That would've been in SoS then?

@amathews29: All hail Gustafson, Viking lord of Omaha!

Twitterz

by T-Jax, Field General on Feb 2, 2012 11:40 AM EST up reply actions  

Yeah, shortly before the Red Wedding.

"Every time you go to that cook-off you get drunk as a poet on payday!"

by DrewRusse on Feb 2, 2012 11:42 AM EST up reply actions  

meh,

alright fine

Time for a reread

See you guys in August

He who rides a tiger cannot dismount

by Irishjugg on Feb 2, 2012 12:03 PM EST up reply actions  

Just looked it up.

The wiki says that Lady Mormont has Robb’s proclamation legitimizing Jon, and she sailed for Bear Island before the Red Wedding. So that factor is indeed still in play.

by BrotherFlounder on Feb 2, 2012 12:05 PM EST up reply actions  

I think Littlefinger is in it to win it.

I would never for one single moment count on him being behind the eight ball.

@papaalphakilo
The people who suggest Brian Kelly should not curse are the reason the rest of us created profanities. - Spencer Hall

by PAK on Jan 30, 2012 2:18 PM EST up reply actions  

I see this turning out one of three ways:

1) Sansa becomes his protege, and they rule together as creepy uncle/husband and niece/wife,
2) Sansa learns from him, then ruins him because she blames him for her father’s death,
or 3) Sansa inadvertantly rats on him, and he burns her as well, and they both fizzle out together.

My loyal heart avows no other.

"While you may not give a shit, @mlebowski313 is an unstoppable force of nature [at Words With Friends]" -T-Jax

by MikeLew on Jan 30, 2012 2:35 PM EST up reply actions  

GRRM hates joy

so Sansa must live.

He who rides a tiger cannot dismount

by Irishjugg on Jan 30, 2012 2:36 PM EST up reply actions  

Actually, since she started caring for little Arryn, I haven't minded her so much.

She’s grown up some, and isn’t the whiny little bitch that she was.

My loyal heart avows no other.

"While you may not give a shit, @mlebowski313 is an unstoppable force of nature [at Words With Friends]" -T-Jax

by MikeLew on Jan 30, 2012 2:38 PM EST up reply actions  

She encountered some adversity and responsibility and matured.

Still somewhat annoying, but she’s grown much, much more tolerable.

I dare say, if she lives long enough she’ll make better decisions than her mother.

@amathews29: All hail Gustafson, Viking lord of Omaha!

Twitterz

by T-Jax, Field General on Jan 30, 2012 2:39 PM EST up reply actions  

Evolution's a slow process.

@amathews29: All hail Gustafson, Viking lord of Omaha!

Twitterz

by T-Jax, Field General on Jan 30, 2012 2:41 PM EST up reply actions  

Yes, to both of those

My loyal heart avows no other.

"While you may not give a shit, @mlebowski313 is an unstoppable force of nature [at Words With Friends]" -T-Jax

by MikeLew on Jan 30, 2012 2:42 PM EST up reply actions  

I thought his plan was to marry her to Harry the Heir

who I imagine will be Lord Harry about three chapters after he’s introduced and Robert Arryn is found dead in his bed.

"Every time you go to that cook-off you get drunk as a poet on payday!"

by DrewRusse on Jan 30, 2012 2:38 PM EST up reply actions  

Well, that's the plan, yes.

But I think the others in the Vale have another card yet to play

My loyal heart avows no other.

"While you may not give a shit, @mlebowski313 is an unstoppable force of nature [at Words With Friends]" -T-Jax

by MikeLew on Jan 30, 2012 2:38 PM EST up reply actions  

Oh, yes, I'm in agreement with you.

I think the Vale is going to do something bad to Littlefinger, and they’ll actually succeed this time.

My loyal heart avows no other.

"While you may not give a shit, @mlebowski313 is an unstoppable force of nature [at Words With Friends]" -T-Jax

by MikeLew on Feb 1, 2012 7:49 PM EST up reply actions  

Bronze Yohn was a big supporter of Robb, though.

If Littlefinger produces Sansa and marries him to Harry the Heir, that may change things.

"Every time you go to that cook-off you get drunk as a poet on payday!"

by DrewRusse on Feb 2, 2012 8:11 AM EST up reply actions  

Yep.

Could cause some complications.

Do we have a common law sense of when he could be declared dead in Westeros?

@amathews29: All hail Gustafson, Viking lord of Omaha!

Twitterz

by T-Jax, Field General on Jan 30, 2012 2:41 PM EST up reply actions  

Yes

But Little Finger and others think Tyrion is dead, I believe.

Trying to kill as many Kerbals as Craig James has (allegedly) hookers.

by AUTigerGSUEagle on Jan 30, 2012 2:41 PM EST up reply actions  

Hope, certainly

I don’t recall anyone really having any idea of what happened to him.

@amathews29: All hail Gustafson, Viking lord of Omaha!

Twitterz

by T-Jax, Field General on Jan 30, 2012 2:42 PM EST up reply actions  

Well, technically, yes.

But, with Tyrion missing and presumed dead/traitor gone, it shouldn’t be much of an issue. With Jeyne taking Arya’s spot, despite Arya still being alive, it’s obvious to me that finding workarounds for those things aren’t that tough.

My loyal heart avows no other.

"While you may not give a shit, @mlebowski313 is an unstoppable force of nature [at Words With Friends]" -T-Jax

by MikeLew on Jan 30, 2012 2:44 PM EST up reply actions  

Slightly different circumstance with the Arya thing.

I suspect that Tyrion not being confirmed dead would complicate any attempts by Littlefinger to claim Winterfell.

@amathews29: All hail Gustafson, Viking lord of Omaha!

Twitterz

by T-Jax, Field General on Jan 30, 2012 2:45 PM EST up reply actions  

Right, different circumstance, but both have had work-arounds found.

I would expect to see Tyrion declared dead, or declared and enemy of the crown, and have all his titles and claims taken from him.

My loyal heart avows no other.

"While you may not give a shit, @mlebowski313 is an unstoppable force of nature [at Words With Friends]" -T-Jax

by MikeLew on Jan 30, 2012 2:51 PM EST up reply actions  

Everyone thinks they're dead though.

Whereas with Tyrion, it’s a bit of a mystery.

@amathews29: All hail Gustafson, Viking lord of Omaha!

Twitterz

by T-Jax, Field General on Feb 2, 2012 10:20 AM EST up reply actions  

I'm not so sure about that.

His plan seems to be to stabilize & control the North (along with the Trident and the Vale), while waiting for the Targaryens to return and ally with Dorne. We know he’s got a strong ally in Highgarden, old lady Tyrell (cannot remember her name right now), which should at least keep Highgarden neutral once Dorne marches.

I assume that he’s expecting to be named the Hand of the King if he can pull this off.

by BrotherFlounder on Jan 30, 2012 8:17 PM EST up reply actions  

I don't think Sansa will survive, based only on the dead Lady argument.

How she’s survived this long has been kind of strange in my mind, at least.

by Neodymium on Feb 1, 2012 4:49 PM EST up reply actions  

Dead Lady argument?

Dead direwolf = dead Stark?

@amathews29: All hail Gustafson, Viking lord of Omaha!

Twitterz

by T-Jax, Field General on Feb 2, 2012 10:20 AM EST up reply actions  

I think he's saying something along the lines of

the Direwolves are important to the Starks, and that without Lady, Sansa may not be able to survive what may be to come (whatever that is).

Trying to kill as many Kerbals as Craig James has (allegedly) hookers.

by AUTigerGSUEagle on Feb 2, 2012 10:32 AM EST up reply actions  

Robb is dead, as is Grey Wind.

Nymeria is lost and wandering, just like Arya.

The symbolism is way too close. Lady being killed has to be a foreshadowing to Sansa biting it at some point. And by someone who is a father figure (Littlefinger?) most likely.

by Neodymium on Feb 2, 2012 2:01 PM EST up reply actions  

This is a pretty interesting take

it seems odd that Littlefinger would be able to do that though, he pretty much just wants to boink the shit out of her right?

Interesting though that Ned killed Lady and everything else has been so paralleled..

Brings a bit more credence or at least more possible reasons for Jon not being a Stark after all since his wolf was a different color and all that

He who rides a tiger cannot dismount

by Irishjugg on Feb 2, 2012 2:05 PM EST up reply actions  

And Ghost is silent. And Ghost is the "opposite" color of black.

Plus, there’s the foreshadowing punch in the face of the stag’s horn in the mother dire wolf’s throat.

by Neodymium on Feb 2, 2012 2:13 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

ah.. right the mother wolf

that I hadnt thought of

He who rides a tiger cannot dismount

by Irishjugg on Feb 2, 2012 2:19 PM EST up reply actions  

didnt either Bran or Jon accidentally warg into Nymeria at some point?

If I am right, I thought it was right before the red wedding when Arya was super close to reuniting with Rob and Catelyn?

Not sure if the timeline was right, but that would make me believe that there is a lot more to the wolf = kid thing

He who rides a tiger cannot dismount

by Irishjugg on Feb 2, 2012 2:21 PM EST up reply actions  

I thought that was actually Arya.

Bran warged into Ghost at one point, though, and saw him on the mountains with Halfhand before they fought Mance Rayder’s folks.

by Neodymium on Feb 2, 2012 3:17 PM EST up reply actions  

well also

Bran was near or had just crossed the wall at the time..

Im thinking the proximity had a lot to do with it, and I think the timing worked out with Arya and Robs wolf or visa versa also, to be proximity based

He who rides a tiger cannot dismount

by Irishjugg on Feb 2, 2012 3:26 PM EST up reply actions  

So is GRRM going to try to weasel his way out of Jon Snow actually being Rhaegar/Lyanna's son

now that everyone has pretty much figured it out?

"Every time you go to that cook-off you get drunk as a poet on payday!"

by DrewRusse on Jan 30, 2012 1:53 PM EST reply actions   1 recs

I would hope not

Since that’s been one of the more obvious possibilities for quite some time, now.

Trying to kill as many Kerbals as Craig James has (allegedly) hookers.

by AUTigerGSUEagle on Jan 30, 2012 1:54 PM EST up reply actions  

that & Aemon paying him all the attention he did.

_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
GTHTSUN
I know can spel well

by CoastalCowbell on Jan 30, 2012 1:55 PM EST up reply actions  

I'm just wondering if the new Targaryen to show up in Dance With Dragons

is actually real, or if he’s the “mummer’s dragon.” Right now I’m leaning more towards he’s the real deal.

Trying to kill as many Kerbals as Craig James has (allegedly) hookers.

by AUTigerGSUEagle on Jan 30, 2012 1:56 PM EST up reply actions  

i'm thinking so, too.

i’m rereading Dance with Dragons right now. I need to refresh myself on all of the storylines.

_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
GTHTSUN
I know can spel well

by CoastalCowbell on Jan 30, 2012 1:59 PM EST up reply actions  

It's really evident in Dance With Dragons.

Plus, how and why is Lyanna dead? And why did Robert want to kill Rhaegar? All because he didn’t like that Rhaegar stole his girlfriend.

by Neodymium on Feb 1, 2012 4:51 PM EST up reply actions  

I just read DwD, and hadnt heard of the R+L stuff at that point

where is it pretty evident and stuff?

He who rides a tiger cannot dismount

by Irishjugg on Feb 2, 2012 11:24 AM EST up reply actions  

Once I saw the theory (on here) it makes a shit-ton of sense

It’s never openly speculated in the text that I recall, but it explains a lot of things.

@amathews29: All hail Gustafson, Viking lord of Omaha!

Twitterz

by T-Jax, Field General on Feb 2, 2012 11:27 AM EST up reply actions  

It's never openly discussed

But he hits on that thing where Rhaegar and Lyanna had a bond a lot in Dance. All the recollections of Rhaegar at the tournament and such.

by Neodymium on Feb 2, 2012 2:02 PM EST up reply actions  

I think he's just going to make him into Azor Azhai (or however you spell it)

Thus giving him command of all the armies of the North (wildlings, Stark’s men minus the Riswells and the leftovers of Stannis’ armies).

by Neodymium on Feb 1, 2012 4:50 PM EST up reply actions  

i'm in the same boat as you.

but as soon as they posted it, it felt like someone slapped me on the back of the head.
makes perfect sense.

_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
GTHTSUN
I know can spel well

by CoastalCowbell on Jan 30, 2012 1:58 PM EST up reply actions  

Nah.

Took me a long damn while. But once the thought occurs, it suddenly makes a shit ton of sense. Particularly after A Dance With Dragons when you get more of Rhaegar’s background and you realize he wasn’t a psycho like his daddy.

Trying to kill as many Kerbals as Craig James has (allegedly) hookers.

by AUTigerGSUEagle on Jan 30, 2012 1:59 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Similar with Jaime

You’ve only ever heard one side of the story before. And now you’re left wondering just exactly whose side you’re supposed to really be pulling for.

Trying to kill as many Kerbals as Craig James has (allegedly) hookers.

by AUTigerGSUEagle on Jan 30, 2012 2:01 PM EST up reply actions  

I forget which book it was in

but after hearing the account of Lyanna’s “abduction” and how she died, it starts to look a lot more like an elopment.

"Every time you go to that cook-off you get drunk as a poet on payday!"

by DrewRusse on Jan 30, 2012 2:03 PM EST up reply actions  

I think that's in the most recent book.

I could be wrong, but it seems like most of the stuff clearing up Rhaegar was in Book 5.

Trying to kill as many Kerbals as Craig James has (allegedly) hookers.

by AUTigerGSUEagle on Jan 30, 2012 2:04 PM EST up reply actions  

It did seem like "Okay, you guys figured it out, so here's some of the answers."

Oh, but, lol, the ending!

I really doubt that Jon’s dead.

My only hope is that he didn’t duck into Ghost to protect himself. I’d hate to call him Jon Fitzchivalry for the rest of the series.

by Neodymium on Feb 1, 2012 4:53 PM EST up reply actions  

This is where a re-read really helps.

The 2nd time through, you start keeping track of who says what. Robert is virtually the only person who says that Rhaegar abducted Lyanna, and he was a lovesick kid when he started the rebellion. Rhaegar and Lyanna clearly had a connection – see Jojen’s campfire story with Bran, and basically every recollection of the Harrenhal tournament.

The Kingsguard stood with Rhaegar. Would Artur Dayne, Sword of the Morning, really have stood with Rhaegar if he abducted and raped Lyanna? I think he would have found some other way to discharge his duties as a Kingsguard that didn’t involve defending someone who would do that.

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by PAK on Jan 30, 2012 2:11 PM EST up reply actions  

My only problem with the theory

is that Ned jumped right in alongside Robert, and we’ve had no evidence of any alternate reason why he’d have done so (although I can certainly think of plenty).

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by jonfmorse on Jan 30, 2012 6:30 PM EST up reply actions  

I always assumed

Ned joining Robert had less to do with Lyanna and more to do with Aerys killing his brother and father and sentencing Ned and Robert to death.

"Every time you go to that cook-off you get drunk as a poet on payday!"

by DrewRusse on Jan 30, 2012 6:38 PM EST up reply actions  

I could be garbling the timeline in my head

but didn’t all that come about as a result of Robert’s rebellion anyway?

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by jonfmorse on Jan 30, 2012 6:48 PM EST up reply actions  

Sort of.

Aerys had the elder starks killed and required Jon Arryn to send Ned’s and Robert’s heads to him. That started the rebellion.

by Albino Tornado on Jan 30, 2012 6:51 PM EST up reply actions  

Okay, it's been forever since I read this (probably due for a re-read)

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by jonfmorse on Jan 30, 2012 6:55 PM EST up reply actions  

Gah, wasn't done

but the reason WHY Aerys had them killed was because Brandon charged into King’s Landing in response to Lyanna being “kidnapped”. Brandon and his pals get arrested, Aerys demands that daddy come to KL, and everyone dies.

So obviously Brandon wasn’t aware that Lyanna wasn’t “kidnapped” if that indeed was the right of it, and it’s doubtful daddy knew. It is, however, possible that Ned knew and GRRM has just cleverly obfuscated that by never having it come up between Ned and Robert, or in Ned’s POV.

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by jonfmorse on Jan 30, 2012 7:00 PM EST up reply actions  

Arryn didn't get involved until it became clear Aerys was killin' errybody.

He was already ineffective and had gone through a couple of hands at that point. However, if the point you’re making was that Rhaegar’s kidnapping of Lyanna was the prime mover in the rebellion, I certainly accept it.

by Albino Tornado on Jan 30, 2012 7:04 PM EST up reply actions  

Yup.

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by jonfmorse on Jan 31, 2012 11:57 AM EST up reply actions  

IMO Ned probably didn't know until he met Lyanna as she lay dying.

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by PAK on Jan 31, 2012 9:31 AM EST up reply actions  

They never really had to rehabilitate Rhaegar.

Pretty much every mention of him, even by the Baratheons and accomplices, mentions that he was a good and honorable person. Unfortunately, he was not the one in charge, and his father par-boiled one too many people to stay in power.

@papaalphakilo
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by PAK on Jan 30, 2012 2:03 PM EST up reply actions  

It took me until the 2nd readthrough to realize there was something odd there.

After my 2nd readthrough of 1-3 I did some message board reading and was like “Oh. Right. That actually makes ALL OF THE SENSE IN THE WORLD.”

@papaalphakilo
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by PAK on Jan 30, 2012 2:02 PM EST up reply actions  

Suddenly tempted to attempt a re-read

/Looks at grad school schedule

Never mind.

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by T-Jax, Field General on Jan 30, 2012 2:03 PM EST up reply actions  

It definitely rewards a re-read.

If you really do like it, it’s worth it, especially once you start figuring out stuff like Jon Snow = Lyanna and Rhaegar’s son.

Promise me, Ned…

@papaalphakilo
The people who suggest Brian Kelly should not curse are the reason the rest of us created profanities. - Spencer Hall

by PAK on Jan 30, 2012 2:06 PM EST up reply actions  

I will warn you that reading all the books in the row is kind of depressing.

If you’re dumb, like me, you keep hoping that Ned and Robb don’t die.

I did the re-read right before Dance this summer. I’m already pining for Winds of Winter.

by Neodymium on Feb 1, 2012 4:56 PM EST up reply actions  

I questioned.

But considered Robert Barantheon the more likely early choice, given his capacity for mansluthood. What I don’t know is Jon’s conception/birth timeline and what impact that might have had on his eligibility for the Iron Throne.

by Albino Tornado on Jan 30, 2012 2:06 PM EST up reply actions  

Well, if he's Robert's son, he'd be first in line

Definitely older than Joffrey.

But I was under the impression that only a Trueborn son would qualify, yes?

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by T-Jax, Field General on Jan 30, 2012 2:08 PM EST up reply actions  

Who can say?

Legitimacy is what people with swords say it is; there’s plenty of examples in our own universe of bastards being legitimized. How many of Robert’s 18 (?) bastards were ever acknowledged (the number is a recollection from the prologue with the fortune teller)? Plus, by hiding Robert’s bastard as Ned’s, it served later to protect him from Melisandre – what with her needing blood of kings for stuff.

by Albino Tornado on Jan 30, 2012 2:13 PM EST up reply actions  

I doubt anyone anticipated Melisandre at the time of Jon's birth

But as a plot device, yes keeping him as Ned’s bastard helps in that regard.

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by T-Jax, Field General on Jan 30, 2012 2:16 PM EST up reply actions  

All of Barantheon's bastards are hidden.

And perhaps one of the Barantheon’s got a fortune-telling too; it’s not like Cersei’s wasn’t prescient. I can see Ned taking the reputation-versus-honor hit, too, all as part of his duties to his liege.

by Albino Tornado on Jan 30, 2012 2:20 PM EST up reply actions  

Well, not *all* of them.

I think we’ve seen two; I know for sure we’ve seen one.

by Chris Pendley on Jan 30, 2012 8:18 PM EST up reply actions  

By hidden, I mean not publicly acknowledged as his

The way others (Jon Snow, any of the various Stones/Sands/Rivers) have been.

by Albino Tornado on Jan 30, 2012 8:28 PM EST up reply actions  

Edric Storm?

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by SpartanDan on Jan 31, 2012 12:44 AM EST up reply actions  

Pretty sure we've seen a couple others

but I think he’s the only one that’s widely known to be Robert’s. (Gendry is one, I think there was another – possibly a girl.)

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Bradley-Terry rankings for college football and basketball: because there aren't enough computer rankings already.

by SpartanDan on Jan 31, 2012 12:59 AM EST up reply actions  

The girl in the Vale who leads people up the mountain to the keep

is one of Robert’s bastards.

"Every time you go to that cook-off you get drunk as a poet on payday!"

by DrewRusse on Jan 31, 2012 8:10 AM EST up reply actions  

Mya Stone (girl in the Vale), Edric Storm, Gendry...

and there is at least one infant girl, who at this point I guess would be a toddler – daughter of Robert and one of the whores in King’s Landing. Ned and/or Jon Arryn found her at one point.

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by PAK on Jan 31, 2012 9:33 AM EST up reply actions  

Yes, but that one is dead, I believe.

Cersei ordered Janos Slynt to find all the bastards he could and kill them. The murder of the woman and child is one of the reasons Tyrion decides to replace Slynt and send him to the Wall.

Trying to kill as many Kerbals as Craig James has (allegedly) hookers.

by AUTigerGSUEagle on Jan 31, 2012 10:27 AM EST up reply actions  

Her name was Barra.

One of the Goldcloaks ran her through with a spear and killed mama, too, if I recall correctly.

by Neodymium on Feb 1, 2012 4:58 PM EST up reply actions  

Thought Mya might be, but I couldn't remember for sure.

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Bradley-Terry rankings for college football and basketball: because there aren't enough computer rankings already.

by SpartanDan on Jan 31, 2012 8:00 PM EST up reply actions  

"The seed is strong"

Jon is definitely not Robert’s, but I can see how in book 1 someone could come to that conclusion.

@papaalphakilo
The people who suggest Brian Kelly should not curse are the reason the rest of us created profanities. - Spencer Hall

by PAK on Jan 30, 2012 2:20 PM EST up reply actions  

Not sure I follow

I mean, he’s dark of hair. Has some Robert-ish tendencies in terms of being hot-headed. Means well be breaks vows on occasion

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by T-Jax, Field General on Jan 30, 2012 2:22 PM EST up reply actions  

Every mention of Robert's bastards mention not only dark hair, but that they look like him.

It is mentioned repeatedly that Jon looks like a Stark.

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The people who suggest Brian Kelly should not curse are the reason the rest of us created profanities. - Spencer Hall

by PAK on Jan 30, 2012 2:59 PM EST up reply actions  

True

Goddamn, I really need to go reread this.

Think my boss would notice if I busted out the Kindle and just read for the next three hours?

@amathews29: All hail Gustafson, Viking lord of Omaha!

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by T-Jax, Field General on Jan 30, 2012 3:02 PM EST up reply actions  

This was my main issue with the Rhaegar/Lyanna thing

Unless the whole looks like a Stark thing came because of Lyanna

He who rides a tiger cannot dismount

by Irishjugg on Jan 30, 2012 3:04 PM EST up reply actions  

wasnt there a whole bit about how Jon and Arya looked more like Ned

and the other kids looked more like Catelyn?

He who rides a tiger cannot dismount

by Irishjugg on Feb 2, 2012 11:30 AM EST up reply actions  

It's noted repeatedly that Arya looks like Lyanna

And that Jon looks like Arya.

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by T-Jax, Field General on Feb 2, 2012 11:33 AM EST up reply actions   1 recs

And then there's the thing that Arya is the only one of Ned's kids who looks like Jon Snow.

And Arya looks like Aunt Lyanna. So much so that Bran thought it was Arya play swordfighting with one of her brothers in his Green Dream vision of the history of Winterfell.

by Neodymium on Feb 1, 2012 4:59 PM EST up reply actions  

I've only read through them once

So it’s entirely possible I’ve missed important nuggets of exposition in the dross, especially if it was in Bran’s tale.

by Albino Tornado on Jan 30, 2012 2:22 PM EST up reply actions  

I sensed on my first read of the first book

that Jon wasn’t Ned’s son. I don’t recall exactly what gave me that feeling, though.

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by jonfmorse on Jan 30, 2012 6:33 PM EST up reply actions  

OK, so assuming evereyone here has read all of aDwD.

I’m assuming that Snow isn’t really dead. Is this mere fanboyish hopefulness, or are we sticking to the standard rule that no one’s dead until they’re in the ground?

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by T-Jax, Field General on Jan 30, 2012 2:00 PM EST reply actions  

GRRM has "killed" quite a few characters at the end of their last appearances in books

and since I think Jon Snow is a very important character, I don’t think he’s dead.

Trying to kill as many Kerbals as Craig James has (allegedly) hookers.

by AUTigerGSUEagle on Jan 30, 2012 2:02 PM EST up reply actions  

Horseface on line one!

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by jonfmorse on Jan 30, 2012 6:34 PM EST up reply actions  

i'm still kinda half-ass thinking that Ned shows back up.

somehow. something about the way Sansa said that the head on the pike didnt look like her father.
Yes.
Even though he was publicly ‘executed’. i’vew got a gut feeling that he aint gone.

_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
GTHTSUN
I know can spel well

by CoastalCowbell on Jan 30, 2012 2:02 PM EST up reply actions  

Oof, that seems a bridge too far.

Too many witnesses and he died in view of the main narrative. Seems like most of the not-deaths are reported as hearsay.

@amathews29: All hail Gustafson, Viking lord of Omaha!

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by T-Jax, Field General on Jan 30, 2012 2:04 PM EST up reply actions  

Yeah, Cersei and Joff were there, right?

You’d think they’d have seen him enough to know if it was someone else on the block.

"Every time you go to that cook-off you get drunk as a poet on payday!"

by DrewRusse on Jan 30, 2012 2:05 PM EST up reply actions  

ALIENS

_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
GTHTSUN
I know can spel well

by CoastalCowbell on Jan 30, 2012 5:02 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Don't tempt him, he might actually do it.

"Every time you go to that cook-off you get drunk as a poet on payday!"

by DrewRusse on Jan 30, 2012 6:29 PM EST up reply actions  

the way the story has gone

it wouldnt surprise me.

_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
GTHTSUN
I know can spel well

by CoastalCowbell on Jan 30, 2012 2:07 PM EST up reply actions  

/Eddard Stark leader of the Brotherhood Without Banners

Would be icky and possible in a few ways

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by T-Jax, Field General on Jan 30, 2012 2:09 PM EST up reply actions  

Or as a cut away at the last second (see Brienne).

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by SpartanDan on Jan 31, 2012 12:45 AM EST up reply actions  

Also Arya

When Sandor “axed” her.

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by T-Jax, Field General on Jan 31, 2012 9:33 AM EST up reply actions  

I would be very, VERY surprised if Ned wasn't gone.

Jon Snow is a prototypical, archetypical, everytypical Campbellian hero. Which means all the father figures need to die.

by Neodymium on Feb 1, 2012 5:01 PM EST up reply actions  

I don't think he's dead.

Just a gut feeling, but I don’t think Jon is going to go out like that.

@papaalphakilo
The people who suggest Brian Kelly should not curse are the reason the rest of us created profanities. - Spencer Hall

by PAK on Jan 30, 2012 2:05 PM EST up reply actions  

Yeah, that would be a shitty way to kill him.

Especially after his awesome execution of Janos Slynt.

Trying to kill as many Kerbals as Craig James has (allegedly) hookers.

by AUTigerGSUEagle on Jan 30, 2012 2:06 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

yeah

He who rides a tiger cannot dismount

by Irishjugg on Jan 30, 2012 2:11 PM EST up reply actions  

But using the cat and seeing through it's eyes

was a pretty nifty move.

Trying to kill as many Kerbals as Craig James has (allegedly) hookers.

by AUTigerGSUEagle on Jan 30, 2012 2:08 PM EST up reply actions  

Right.

GRRM has taken near death to an art form.

Well, that and unnecessarily detailed sexual exploits (both hands on the typewriter, George).

by Chris Pendley on Jan 30, 2012 8:20 PM EST up reply actions  

Not a chance, especially with Melisandre seeing him in her fires instead of Stannis.

Stannis, on the other hand, is probably going to eat it during the attempted siege of Winterfell if he doesn’t die in the blizzard first.

by BrotherFlounder on Jan 30, 2012 8:28 PM EST up reply actions  

This makes me wonder about whether Jon is really dead.

I mean, we did already see Melisandre disguise one man, why not another who might be king?

My loyal heart avows no other.

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by MikeLew on Jan 30, 2012 11:49 PM EST up reply actions  

It was from Jon's own POV

But all we know is that he passed out. We don’t know if he actually died.

Trying to kill as many Kerbals as Craig James has (allegedly) hookers.

by AUTigerGSUEagle on Jan 30, 2012 11:54 PM EST up reply actions  

You have more faith in him keeping that POV true than I do-

too much experience with fantasy writers “But, wait!”-ing characters

My loyal heart avows no other.

"While you may not give a shit, @mlebowski313 is an unstoppable force of nature [at Words With Friends]" -T-Jax

by MikeLew on Jan 31, 2012 8:19 AM EST up reply actions  

Yup, remember that Melisandre saw him in the vision

first as a man, then as a wolf, then as a man again. And remember what the intro chapter to aDwD was all about.

by Boy Howdy on Feb 2, 2012 6:58 PM EST up reply actions  

whoa.

_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
GTHTSUN
I know can spel well

by CoastalCowbell on Feb 3, 2012 8:59 AM EST up reply actions  

Yep. Leaves a sad Fitzchivalry Farseer taste in the mouth.

In case you’ve read the Robin Hobb books. Otherwise…disregard me…

by Neodymium on Feb 3, 2012 12:45 PM EST up reply actions  

Does anyone else think that it's Jaime that winds up killing Cersei instead of Tyrion?

He’s technically her younger brother, too.

"Every time you go to that cook-off you get drunk as a poet on payday!"

by DrewRusse on Jan 30, 2012 2:07 PM EST reply actions  

This is a very good possibility.

Especially with the way his character arc is going, now. He actually seems like he’s going to be… likeable. Maybe even honorable for the rest of the way.

Trying to kill as many Kerbals as Craig James has (allegedly) hookers.

by AUTigerGSUEagle on Jan 30, 2012 2:09 PM EST up reply actions  

Jaime has been a likable character since the moment he got a POV.

A lot of people really hated it, but I absolutely loved the Brienne/Jaime buddy-cop-movie-meets-l’morte d’arthur plotline.

@papaalphakilo
The people who suggest Brian Kelly should not curse are the reason the rest of us created profanities. - Spencer Hall

by PAK on Jan 30, 2012 2:17 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

I can only guess that Brienne is going to take him back to

zombie Catelyn, and have no clue where it will go from there. I’ll be pissed if Jaime gets knocked off, now.

Trying to kill as many Kerbals as Craig James has (allegedly) hookers.

by AUTigerGSUEagle on Jan 30, 2012 2:21 PM EST up reply actions  

this

there has to be more to it than that. right?

Please dont let Brienne be a zombie now too, that would annoy the shit out of me

He who rides a tiger cannot dismount

by Irishjugg on Jan 30, 2012 2:22 PM EST up reply actions  

The whole zombie Catelyn thing is pretty awful, imo

except for the indiscriminate merking of Freys

/YoungWolf4Life

"Every time you go to that cook-off you get drunk as a poet on payday!"

by DrewRusse on Jan 30, 2012 2:25 PM EST up reply actions   2 recs

I would very much like all of them to die

Painfully

He who rides a tiger cannot dismount

by Irishjugg on Jan 30, 2012 2:28 PM EST up reply actions  

There will always be another Walder.

@amathews29: All hail Gustafson, Viking lord of Omaha!

Twitterz

by T-Jax, Field General on Jan 30, 2012 2:37 PM EST up reply actions  

motherfuckers?

I believe “daughterfuckers” would be more accurate in this case.

@amathews29: All hail Gustafson, Viking lord of Omaha!

Twitterz

by T-Jax, Field General on Jan 30, 2012 2:44 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Or the Castameres...

My loyal heart avows no other.

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by MikeLew on Jan 30, 2012 2:44 PM EST up reply actions  

Wyman Manderly likes the way you think.

I've got this terrible pain in all the diodes down my left-hand side.
Bradley-Terry rankings for college football and basketball: because there aren't enough computer rankings already.

by SpartanDan on Jan 31, 2012 12:47 AM EST up reply actions  

Here, sir, would you like some Frey-pie?

It’s delicious.

Trying to kill as many Kerbals as Craig James has (allegedly) hookers.

by AUTigerGSUEagle on Jan 31, 2012 10:27 AM EST up reply actions  

I did as well.

He’s still been a bastard at times, but for the most part, he’s been much more understandable since you started getting his POV.

Trying to kill as many Kerbals as Craig James has (allegedly) hookers.

by AUTigerGSUEagle on Jan 30, 2012 2:20 PM EST up reply actions  

After we got his POV

I started liking him more, and seeing Catelyn as the vile, retched bitch that she was. Is. Whatever.

by Neodymium on Feb 1, 2012 5:05 PM EST up reply actions  

It's really sort of bizarre

to look back and realize the only really “bad” thing Jamie’s done (setting aside the whole incest thing as merely “squicky”) is now so bloody out of character that it’s hard to believe he did it.

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by jonfmorse on Jan 30, 2012 6:37 PM EST up reply actions  

I was about to ask which "bad" thing you were talking about

until I suddenly recalled the whole “pushing Bran off the ledge” deal. Yeah, you’re right. Looking back, he really was pretty honorable or had justifiable reasons for many things he did. A lot of his reputation comes from his brash nature preventing him from explaining things.

Trying to kill as many Kerbals as Craig James has (allegedly) hookers.

by AUTigerGSUEagle on Jan 30, 2012 6:40 PM EST up reply actions  

attacking ned in the street and killing all his men

seemed a bit of an overreaction for Catelyn borrowing Tyrion though, right?

He who rides a tiger cannot dismount

by Irishjugg on Feb 2, 2012 11:34 AM EST up reply actions  

This is true.

Trying to kill as many Kerbals as Craig James has (allegedly) hookers.

by AUTigerGSUEagle on Feb 2, 2012 11:38 AM EST up reply actions  

That's my point about abdicating responsibility for his decision.

He abdicated the accountability for it to Cersei. “The things I do for love.” Jaime never had an opinion that someone else didn’t give to him until recent events.

by Albino Tornado on Jan 30, 2012 6:49 PM EST up reply actions  

I don't know that it was THAT far out of character. He did it to protect himself and his family.

He was trying to kill Bran in order to save his children.

@papaalphakilo
The people who suggest Brian Kelly should not curse are the reason the rest of us created profanities. - Spencer Hall

by PAK on Jan 31, 2012 9:35 AM EST up reply actions  

I think it read a lot worse at first

because we didn’t understand his motivations.

That sentence can be applied to a pretty wide set of actions in the story.

@amathews29: All hail Gustafson, Viking lord of Omaha!

Twitterz

by T-Jax, Field General on Jan 31, 2012 9:37 AM EST up reply actions  

Right. Much like Jaime's turn as a kingslayer.

@papaalphakilo
The people who suggest Brian Kelly should not curse are the reason the rest of us created profanities. - Spencer Hall

by PAK on Jan 31, 2012 10:16 AM EST up reply actions  

If not likeable, at least accountable.

Before, he abdicated every decision about his own actions either to his sister or to some other higher authority.

by Albino Tornado on Jan 30, 2012 2:21 PM EST up reply actions  

And while we're at it, can we get everyone important the fuck out of Mereen?

The more he writes about the Ghiscari, the weirder they get. The Astapori digging up their old king and propping him on horse for battle was a fun touch, though.

"Every time you go to that cook-off you get drunk as a poet on payday!"

by DrewRusse on Jan 30, 2012 2:33 PM EST reply actions   1 recs

Ive been pretty bored with all of the Mereen stuff actually

and was pretty annoyed when Dany’s favorite slave girl died.

That said, I am thinking someone is going to shit their pants when she rides her newly wellish trained dragon at the head of a Dothraki horde towards their town

He who rides a tiger cannot dismount

by Irishjugg on Jan 30, 2012 2:36 PM EST up reply actions  

I wonder if I'm the only one

who’s found Dany’s entire thread to be droning, boring, sigh-inducing sludge.

Admittedly, the TV series made her thread more tolerable, but in the books, I just wanted those chapters to end.

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by jonfmorse on Jan 30, 2012 6:39 PM EST up reply actions  

Yes.

I am with you. I am going to really enjoy it when Jon Snow fucking kills her. And that it’s the White Dragon or whatever that goes over to him.

by Neodymium on Feb 1, 2012 5:07 PM EST up reply actions  

I never had a problem with Dany's story until DwD.

In DwD she just spun her wheels and it was very frustrating. It’s time to get her out of Slaver Bay.

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by PAK on Jan 30, 2012 3:08 PM EST up reply actions  

Yeah, I was hoping for some movement on her part.

I guess the whole “I’m gonna stay here and rule” ending of her arc in Storm of Swords should have told me what to expect, though. Hopefully it gets moving with the dragons, now.

Trying to kill as many Kerbals as Craig James has (allegedly) hookers.

by AUTigerGSUEagle on Jan 30, 2012 3:11 PM EST up reply actions  

They could've left her arc after that, right?

Although I guess they needed to salvage Tyrion, so maybe not. But the OMG OLDER BROTHER OUT OF NOWHERE line – which is consistent with the “don’t narrate the actually pivotal people” thought process he’s used before – is making me think she might just be killed off.

by Chris Pendley on Jan 30, 2012 8:23 PM EST up reply actions  

Aegon is the "mummer's dragon"

Seems to be the obvious fake. Honestly, Dany’s plotline irritates the hell out of me, but the only thing that could make it worse is for her to die before she even reaches Westeros.

“Hey everyone, now that you’ve wasted literally over 1,000 pages in 5 books reading about this bitch, we’re going to kill her off before she actually makes meaningful contact with anyone in any other plotline. This series literally would be improved by you ripping those pages out of your books.”

It’d honestly do more to convince me that he’s lost control of the series Jordan style than almost anything else.

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by Kazoonole on Jan 31, 2012 6:16 PM EST up reply actions  

I thought "mummer's dragon"

referred to his assosciation with Varys, not any sort of fraud on his part. But that was just my take.

"Every time you go to that cook-off you get drunk as a poet on payday!"

by DrewRusse on Feb 1, 2012 8:03 AM EST up reply actions  

Agreed.

I get that she wanted to try to fix Mereen, but I feel like we just got bogged down in the details and, as pointed out above, was used mainly to set up a situation where Tyrion looked good.

by BrotherFlounder on Jan 30, 2012 8:31 PM EST up reply actions  

I'm not sure why she was portrayed as trying to fix Mereen.

It felt very WoT-level unnecessary to get that tied up in day-to-day court life.

by Chris Pendley on Jan 30, 2012 8:32 PM EST up reply actions  

I suspect that this was one of the effects of not doing the time-skip.

Dany said at the end of Storm of Swords that she intended to stay in Mereen and rule, learning from her previous mistakes of simply sacking it and moving on. There was supposed to be a 3-4 year gap between SOS and her chapters in DWD; when GRRM realized that this wouldn’t work, I suspect he really wasn’t sure what to fill in with, and pushed what would have been her DWD stuff towards the end of that book and into The Winds of Winter.

by BrotherFlounder on Jan 30, 2012 8:39 PM EST up reply actions  

So where does the Tyrion may or may not be Aery's bastard stuff come from?

Is it basically the whole Papa Lannister and Aerys hated each other and Aerys may have boinked his wife etc stuff?

He who rides a tiger cannot dismount

by Irishjugg on Feb 2, 2012 11:39 AM EST up reply actions  

Tyrion says, almost as soon as we meet him,

that his father always treated him like a bastard, aside from that, it strikes me as pretty damn thin. I guess the dragon obsession could say something. And the likely twisted genetics of the Targaryans might explain his impish nature.

Damn… the more I think about it, the more THAT makes sense too. This is why I’m glad we’re having this thread.

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by T-Jax, Field General on Feb 2, 2012 11:42 AM EST up reply actions  

I think it's all from the fact that Aerys may have had Tywin's wife

in a sort of “first night” kind of way similar to what you say in Braveheart (even with my Latin background I’m still too lazy to look up the precise wording/spelling). Though that would more imply that it’s Jaime and Cersei who would be Aerys’ bastards. I honestly can’t remember the specifics though, so I could be completely wrong.

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by AUTigerGSUEagle on Feb 2, 2012 12:14 PM EST up reply actions  

Yes. Yes they do.

Trying to kill as many Kerbals as Craig James has (allegedly) hookers.

by AUTigerGSUEagle on Feb 2, 2012 12:19 PM EST up reply actions  

Imagine, if you will

that Tyrion is actually Tywin’s only legitimate heir.

Then consider Tywin’s actions/reactions in that light.

/Inception music

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by jonfmorse on Feb 2, 2012 2:39 PM EST up reply actions  

Not much Tywin can do about it one way or the other, now.

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by AUTigerGSUEagle on Feb 2, 2012 2:46 PM EST up reply actions  

His death and funeral were so awesome.

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by T-Jax, Field General on Feb 2, 2012 2:49 PM EST up reply actions  

"prima noctis" is the Latin you're looking for.

And the consistent repetition of “all dwarves are bastards in their fathers’ eyes” may lend some creedence to Tyrion being one, but as you said, that wouldn’t be a case of prima noctis impregnation

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by MikeLew on Feb 2, 2012 12:33 PM EST up reply actions  

And how Tyrion and Jon hit it off in the first book would play toward a "brotherly" sort of thing.

Plus, and it might have been a mistake, Tyrion’s dark eye appeared purple in the light during Dance with Dragons. Kind of a hint there.

And the light hair of his beard isn’t Lannister gold, it’s white and brittle.

by Neodymium on Feb 2, 2012 2:05 PM EST up reply actions  

There were some hints that Aerys may have had his way with Tywin's wife at some point

Which could also call into question some other parentage. I doubt that’s the case though. I think GRRM may have just been ticked at people catching on too quickly to some other things and decided to throw something else in that would cause rampant speculation.

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by AUTigerGSUEagle on Jan 30, 2012 2:41 PM EST reply actions  

I tend to think most authors

are more appreciative of people catching on than we’d suspect, and often have no intention of a blatant reveal. (There are a handful of “open questions” in Wheel of Time which Robert Jordan never intended to directly spell out for the reader, and was actually annoyed that people were asking him questions about them because he felt all the clues were there.)

In that light, I suspect Martin intended us to glom onto the Rhaegar/Lyanna/Jon thing, and if he’s playing at anything it may just be at that being a red herring all along.

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by jonfmorse on Jan 30, 2012 6:45 PM EST up reply actions  

Graendel.

I mean, come on.

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by jonfmorse on Jan 30, 2012 8:29 PM EST up reply actions  

Was that explicitly revealed later?

I stopped reading after book 10 (which I only read once).

by Chris Pendley on Jan 30, 2012 8:31 PM EST up reply actions  

It has never been explicitly revealed

although, presumably in response to everyone whining about it, Jordan later made it a little more obvious.

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by jonfmorse on Jan 30, 2012 8:33 PM EST up reply actions  

Speaking of Wheel of Time

Should I attempt to read it? Or should I try Discworld novels first?

by BrotherFlounder on Jan 30, 2012 8:31 PM EST up reply actions  

I guess that depends on how much time you spend reading.

It’s a very good series, although it starts a little slow and drags badly in the late-middle.

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by jonfmorse on Jan 30, 2012 8:35 PM EST up reply actions  

Rec'd for truth.

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by AUTigerGSUEagle on Jan 30, 2012 8:57 PM EST up reply actions  

I would recommend it.

Though it does get bogged down around Book 8 and stays that way for a good bit. Brandon Sanderson has done an excellent job at finishing it up, and I’ve become a huge fan of his work. I’m rereading the Mistborn series now, and really look forward to how his “Stormlight Archive” series develops. That’s one of the more intriguing fantasy books I’ve read in a while in how it has an entire ecology Sanderson developed that has adapted for a world that sees hurricanes go over the entire world every few days.

Trying to kill as many Kerbals as Craig James has (allegedly) hookers.

by AUTigerGSUEagle on Jan 30, 2012 8:59 PM EST up reply actions  

I've gotten through the first five books of WoT.

I can already feel it slowing down a little, but I’m not really surprised. Long-arc series like that always seem to drag in the middle; the trouble is trying to figure out whether the payoff is worth it, and that is something you can’t really know until the end of the series when you find out how much of that slow middle turns out to be important.

Discworld is awesome – I’m a particular fan of the stories centered around either Death or the City Watch.

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by SpartanDan on Jan 31, 2012 12:53 AM EST up reply actions  

Definitely go with Discworld

I love GoT, but I wish I’d never started Wheel of Time. Honest to god, the last four or so books\ Jordan wrote take about 7,000 pages to give you about 500 pages worth of actual plot and character development.

Anyone who like this place would like the Discworld books.

by Chet Manly on Jan 31, 2012 4:46 AM EST up reply actions  

The first 5 books are pretty good. 6 is okay. 7 until I stopped were dreadfully bad.

Sad. Sorta like GRRM, he fell into OMG I MUST MAKE THIS PERFECT mode, with a compunction to introduce new points of view, but without the utter ruthlessness of GRRM to murder characters when it was time. So instead of “well, we lost Ned and Catelyn but we pick up Jaime and the Greyjoys to take up those pages” it’s just “3 more characters! wow that’s a lot of pages! Guess Mat gets left out of this book LOL”

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by PAK on Jan 31, 2012 9:41 AM EST up reply actions  

But Sanderson has been doing an excellent job of wrapping it up.

And even Jordan was picking up steam again with “Knife of Dreams.”

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by AUTigerGSUEagle on Jan 31, 2012 10:29 AM EST up reply actions  

Maybe once Sanderson is done I'll pick up the remaining books, but for now I'm leaving it alone. Malazan Book of the Fallen awaits.

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by PAK on Jan 31, 2012 10:29 AM EST up reply actions  

It's already done.

In final edits now, should be released in Octoberr.

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by jonfmorse on Feb 1, 2012 6:07 PM EST up reply actions  

40% done with the second draft

per Sanderson’s website. Should be out near the end of the year. October/November is about right.

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by AUTigerGSUEagle on Feb 1, 2012 8:04 PM EST up reply actions  

That's a good point.

I never really considered that Tyrion would be Aerys’ bastard, but it would make Tywin’s last words awfully prescient.

"Every time you go to that cook-off you get drunk as a poet on payday!"

by DrewRusse on Feb 2, 2012 8:14 AM EST up reply actions  

Is Bran just going to literally become a vegetable at this point

or will he be coming back with some kind of vengence?

He who rides a tiger cannot dismount

by Irishjugg on Jan 30, 2012 2:58 PM EST reply actions  

It sounds like vegetable

but that’s another one where I can’t really see where GRRM is going with it…

"Every time you go to that cook-off you get drunk as a poet on payday!"

by DrewRusse on Jan 30, 2012 3:01 PM EST up reply actions  

It almost seems like he got bored with the character and just said

“Here’s a batshit crazy way to get rid of him”

Has the added benefit of The twins basically dying of boredom/starvation/etc out there too and they are gone as well

He who rides a tiger cannot dismount

by Irishjugg on Jan 30, 2012 3:04 PM EST up reply actions  

well, that didnt work.

bored → batshit way to dissappear him → kills the reeds because he is bored with them too → his problems solved

He who rides a tiger cannot dismount

by Irishjugg on Jan 30, 2012 3:06 PM EST up reply actions  

Forgive my terrible, terrible memory

Have we heard fuckall from Rickon in two or three books?

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by T-Jax, Field General on Jan 30, 2012 3:08 PM EST up reply actions  

Not since he and Bran split up

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by MikeLew on Jan 30, 2012 3:10 PM EST up reply actions  

We kind of have hints of where he is.

And I believe Davos is going to be dispatched to find him.

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by AUTigerGSUEagle on Jan 30, 2012 3:10 PM EST up reply actions  

Makes sense.

Plus, if Jon really is Rhaegar and Lyanna’s son, I assume we’ll have to meet Howland at some point, anyway.

"Every time you go to that cook-off you get drunk as a poet on payday!"

by DrewRusse on Jan 30, 2012 3:20 PM EST up reply actions  

I think it was Skagos.

There was a reference to cannibals. And Osha the wildling took him. And Davos REALLY didn’t want to go there.

by Neodymium on Feb 1, 2012 5:11 PM EST up reply actions  

This seems to be the prevailing theory.

I’m still partway through rereading A Storm of Swords, so I haven’t gotten to those clues yet.

by BrotherFlounder on Feb 1, 2012 10:27 PM EST up reply actions  

Why does Davos/Manderly know?

Was that part of that little undervcover meeting?

Shit what book was that, I need to reread parts

He who rides a tiger cannot dismount

by Irishjugg on Jan 30, 2012 3:20 PM EST up reply actions  

I liked Osha too

I want to hear more of her stuff

He who rides a tiger cannot dismount

by Irishjugg on Jan 30, 2012 3:19 PM EST up reply actions  

Well, at least he remembered Bran.

Poor Rickon.

Though, what do you write about a 5 year old and his wildling Nanny?

"Every time you go to that cook-off you get drunk as a poet on payday!"

by DrewRusse on Jan 30, 2012 3:07 PM EST up reply actions  

Exactly

There’s 1) not much to write there and 2) I think he wants people to forget about Rickon so he can come out of nowhere to claim the North, much like the Targaryen heir that is about to reveal himself.

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by PAK on Jan 30, 2012 3:18 PM EST up reply actions  

This raises an interesting question

How much time has passed from GoT to DwD?

"Every time you go to that cook-off you get drunk as a poet on payday!"

by DrewRusse on Jan 30, 2012 3:22 PM EST up reply actions  

Isnt it like 3 years?

Possibly a little more.

I used to know this…

He who rides a tiger cannot dismount

by Irishjugg on Jan 30, 2012 3:29 PM EST up reply actions  

I would say just a few years.

3, maybe 4 in DwD.

Fun fact: A lot of the delay between books 3, 4, and 5 were due to GRRM having to completely retool his timeline. Originally there was supposed to be a 4 year gap after SoS but before aFfC. I’m sure quite a lot of the delay was due to perfectionism setting in, but I can see how having to redo a timeline like that could have quite an effect.

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by PAK on Jan 30, 2012 3:34 PM EST up reply actions  

I really don't know why he thought chronological gaps would be a good idea

The in-text exposition alone would take up half the book.

"Every time you go to that cook-off you get drunk as a poet on payday!"

by DrewRusse on Jan 30, 2012 3:37 PM EST up reply actions  

To his credit, at least he was able to say to himself:

“Wow. This was a tremendously stupid idea.” and set about fixing it. Many people have trouble with that level of self-awareness. It also helps that he had enough clout with his publishers after aSoS that he could tell them to f-off while he got it figured out.

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by PAK on Jan 30, 2012 3:40 PM EST up reply actions  

I'm thinking veggie.

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by T-Jax, Field General on Jan 30, 2012 3:02 PM EST up reply actions  

and moreso

I think he probably becomes one of “The Old Gods”

Need to think/reread more to flesh that thought out.

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by T-Jax, Field General on Jan 30, 2012 3:03 PM EST up reply actions  

The more I think about this, the more sense it makes.

Per Osha, the Old Gods respond to prayers through the sound of wind in Weirwoods, or something to that effect, right? Wasn’t that what Bran was doing by the end of aDwD?

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by T-Jax, Field General on Jan 31, 2012 10:04 AM EST up reply actions  

Both.

Become one with whatever those damned trees are and have his consciousness be unstuck in time and place.

by Albino Tornado on Jan 30, 2012 3:15 PM EST up reply actions  

The Red God (R'hllor) is an adversary of the Others.

(the night is dark and full of terror)

I doubt Bran would be getting into conflict with them directly, at least not before the Others have been defeated.

@papaalphakilo
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by PAK on Jan 31, 2012 9:42 AM EST up reply actions  

Right.

I guess I thought of the tree people as guiding the Others, but it’s been a while since I’ve read those parts.

by Chris Pendley on Feb 1, 2012 6:16 PM EST up reply actions  

Yeah that was pretty agressive

Dude was asking if he should bail then got RedWedding’d

He who rides a tiger cannot dismount

by Irishjugg on Jan 30, 2012 3:06 PM EST up reply actions  

rec'd

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by T-Jax, Field General on Jan 30, 2012 3:07 PM EST up reply actions  

This has to have some context that I'm unaware of.

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by AUTigerGSUEagle on Jan 30, 2012 3:07 PM EST up reply actions  

LOST?

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by T-Jax, Field General on Jan 30, 2012 3:08 PM EST up reply actions  

...

That is all. Carry on.

¡El Hipopótamo!

by Ancient Chinese Secret on Jan 30, 2012 4:12 PM EST reply actions  

I'm NFF'd. If this isn't a nerrrrrrrds.gif I'm going to be a bit disappointed.

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by PAK on Jan 30, 2012 4:56 PM EST up reply actions  

It's the "Charles is Coming" .jpg

Trying to kill as many Kerbals as Craig James has (allegedly) hookers.

by AUTigerGSUEagle on Jan 30, 2012 4:57 PM EST up reply actions  

Should read

“Dinner is coming?”

"Every time you go to that cook-off you get drunk as a poet on payday!"

by DrewRusse on Jan 30, 2012 4:58 PM EST up reply actions  

naw

“Dinner is gone”

_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
GTHTSUN
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by CoastalCowbell on Jan 30, 2012 4:59 PM EST up reply actions  

Chronicles of Riddick OR DeathRace?

Senative n. the destruction of one's political career by meme: [fr: middle Intrazweb Eynglush (2009-2020) note: post ASCII], see entry under "Craig James allegedly killed 5 hookers while enrolled at SMU".

by DressHerInWhiteAndGold on Jan 30, 2012 8:08 PM EST reply actions  

So, Melisandre. Discuss.

It’s been four books and I still don’t have any idea what she’s doing.

by Chris Pendley on Jan 30, 2012 8:16 PM EST reply actions  

She actually seems to have... decent... motivations from her POV in aDwD

I just think she’s seriously misguided in her interpretations of what she’s attempting to do.

Trying to kill as many Kerbals as Craig James has (allegedly) hookers.

by AUTigerGSUEagle on Jan 30, 2012 8:17 PM EST up reply actions  

She seems to be a genuinely good person following a crazy, possibly demonic, religion.

The contrast between her personality/POV and her actions are rather interesting.

by BrotherFlounder on Jan 30, 2012 8:35 PM EST up reply actions  

I'm not sure how we can classify someone

who has committed multiple murders as a “genuinely good person”.

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by jonfmorse on Jan 30, 2012 8:38 PM EST up reply actions  

Oh, right.

That vision of her chosen one fighting the evil from the northlands: is that hot brother-on-brother violence being foretold, or just another reference to the Others?

by Chris Pendley on Jan 30, 2012 8:42 PM EST up reply actions  

The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one.

She’s fighting some implacable winter thing. She’s worried about the wars of succession only insofar as they help pursue that.

And let’s remember what’s happened to the last genuinely good person we saw. Eddard Stark? The Knight of Flowers? The Sword of the Morning?

by Albino Tornado on Jan 30, 2012 8:42 PM EST up reply actions  

Ned and Arthur Dayne seem to be the only two who come anywhere close.

Loras is close in the books, but the show makes it pretty clear that he was pushing Renly into going for the Iron Throne; it’s also possible that he was in on the plan to assassinate Joffery.

by BrotherFlounder on Jan 30, 2012 8:45 PM EST up reply actions  

And it's not like we get a whole lot of Arthur Dayne other than flashbacks and references

Though I will say that the flashback dialogue between Ned and Dayne and co. was probably the most well-written sequence in the entire series thus far.

Also, looking forward to seeing more of Gerold Dayne. Who doesn’t a like a guy nicknamed “Darkstar?”

"Every time you go to that cook-off you get drunk as a poet on payday!"

by DrewRusse on Jan 31, 2012 12:51 AM EST up reply actions  

Me.

Only hippie renfaire nymphomaniacs go by “Darkstar”.

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by jonfmorse on Jan 31, 2012 12:56 AM EST up reply actions  

Ahem.

I said “nymphomaniacs”, not “satyromaniacs”, sir!

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by jonfmorse on Jan 31, 2012 1:00 AM EST up reply actions  

Is there a "genuinely good person" in this entire series

that hasn’t ended up eating a mouthful of shit?

I’d throw Selmy in there, and maybe Brienne, and I think in retrospect I’m almost be inclined to include Rhaegar.

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by jonfmorse on Jan 30, 2012 8:53 PM EST up reply actions  

So, Arya

Thoughts from you guys on where she’ll end up?

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by Nick Petrilli on Jan 30, 2012 9:14 PM EST reply actions  

GRRM is such a bastard

he’ll probably end up locking her away in a whorehouse.

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by jonfmorse on Jan 30, 2012 9:17 PM EST up reply actions  

I have absolutely no idea.

She may end up in an awkward reunion with Jon at some point, but beyond that I have no idea where he’s going to take her.

by BrotherFlounder on Jan 30, 2012 9:22 PM EST up reply actions  

IMO she will live as an assassin until she is dispatched to kill someone she loves.

Jon Snow, perhaps? Sansa? She’ll abort the mission, return to the temple to reclaim Needle, and come back to Westeros to lead an army Nymeria-style.

That is what exactly what would happen if GRRM were into fan-service. The reality will likely be quite a bit more sad.

@papaalphakilo
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by PAK on Jan 31, 2012 10:13 AM EST up reply actions  

GRRM? Fan-service

LOL NO SIR F U

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by T-Jax, Field General on Jan 31, 2012 10:27 AM EST up reply actions  

Sweet: GRRM posted a chapter from "The Winds of Winter" a couple weeks ago.

A Theon Greyjoy chapter, to be precise. Here it is. Beware big spoilers.

So nice to see that he’s actually moving this plot along!

by BrotherFlounder on Jan 30, 2012 9:20 PM EST reply actions  

Theon's storyline in aDwD was seriously fucked up

I remember thinking “there’s no way he just killed Theon off like that” when he disappeared, and then I remember that moment of “oh shit, this is Theon” when I hit his chapters in aDwD. That was seriously twisted.

Trying to kill as many Kerbals as Craig James has (allegedly) hookers.

by AUTigerGSUEagle on Jan 30, 2012 9:25 PM EST up reply actions  

ZZZzzZZZZZZBZZZZZZ

Dudes, telling whose story it is in whose book is a spoiler.

by Albino Tornado on Jan 30, 2012 9:25 PM EST up reply actions  

What?

I’m talking about something in A Dance With Dragons, which is fair game in this thread.

Trying to kill as many Kerbals as Craig James has (allegedly) hookers.

by AUTigerGSUEagle on Jan 30, 2012 9:31 PM EST up reply actions  

I'm fairly certain I'm not.

Referencing what a character does in Book N tells the ignorant that character survives through Book N-1.

by Albino Tornado on Jan 30, 2012 9:36 PM EST up reply actions  

Oh, shit. I am an idiot.

That’s what I get for having mulitple tabs open. Give me ONE SECOND to get my shit together.

by Albino Tornado on Jan 30, 2012 9:37 PM EST up reply actions  

I was wondering if you had wondered in here by mistake.

Trying to kill as many Kerbals as Craig James has (allegedly) hookers.

by AUTigerGSUEagle on Jan 30, 2012 9:38 PM EST up reply actions  

WANDERED

Typing fail.

Trying to kill as many Kerbals as Craig James has (allegedly) hookers.

by AUTigerGSUEagle on Jan 30, 2012 9:39 PM EST up reply actions  

oh, fuck me, I get it now

nevermind

He who rides a tiger cannot dismount

by Irishjugg on Feb 2, 2012 12:07 PM EST up reply actions  

I dont get why that isnt allowed in this thread?

Isnt this the “Dont come here if you havent reead all 5 books” spoiler thread?

He who rides a tiger cannot dismount

by Irishjugg on Feb 2, 2012 12:06 PM EST up reply actions  

oh DAYUM

He who rides a tiger cannot dismount

by Irishjugg on Feb 2, 2012 11:49 AM EST up reply actions  

Pretty good excerpt

He who rides a tiger cannot dismount

by Irishjugg on Feb 2, 2012 12:46 PM EST up reply actions  

Can't wait to read the whole thing...

…in 2014.

"Every time you go to that cook-off you get drunk as a poet on payday!"

by DrewRusse on Feb 2, 2012 1:11 PM EST up reply actions  

It is pretty good.

I think I have a good idea of where it’s going with the ravens saying “tree” and “Theon.” Any guesses on whether Stannis shits a brick when the heart tree starts talking?

Trying to kill as many Kerbals as Craig James has (allegedly) hookers.

by AUTigerGSUEagle on Feb 6, 2012 3:10 PM EST up reply actions  

Self reply...

Looking back, I probably should have held off on that statement, as there are spoilers for that particular chapter if you haven’t read it.

Trying to kill as many Kerbals as Craig James has (allegedly) hookers.

by AUTigerGSUEagle on Feb 6, 2012 9:25 PM EST up reply actions  

Apparently the actual Ferris Bueller/Honda CRV commercial Sunday

will be one hundred and fifty seconds long.

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by jonfmorse on Jan 30, 2012 9:44 PM EST reply actions  

Saw the full thing this morning

It’s… it’s not funny.

Trying to kill as many Kerbals as Craig James has (allegedly) hookers.

by AUTigerGSUEagle on Jan 30, 2012 9:47 PM EST up reply actions  

/wrong thread derp

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by jonfmorse on Jan 30, 2012 9:48 PM EST up reply actions  

So...

my sister made All-State (HS) choir!!! (total 5 from alma mater)
This is the 6th straight year of multiple people from alma mater making it (100 people total from the whole state after Regional and State Honors Choir performances/auditions)
8th straight of at least 1
(School’s select mixed group, which she’s in) also performed at State’s music conference (essentially the state championship)

CHOAHHR NERD STAYTE CHAMPEEONS, PAWWWWWWLL

by MGoEcon on Jan 30, 2012 11:54 PM EST reply actions  

Nice.

Not sure if you jumped to this thread by mistake when you meant to go to the other one. Be warned: this is the Song of Ice and Fire spoiler thread. So READ NOTHING IF YOU HAVEN’T READ THE BOOKS.

Trying to kill as many Kerbals as Craig James has (allegedly) hookers.

by AUTigerGSUEagle on Jan 30, 2012 11:56 PM EST up reply actions  

Thanks.

And did jump by mistake.

by MGoEcon on Jan 30, 2012 11:56 PM EST up reply actions  

No problem.

I’m trying to watch out for people who jumped here without reading my warning in the other thread to prevent anyone being spoiled. Because there’s some serious spoilers up in here.

Trying to kill as many Kerbals as Craig James has (allegedly) hookers.

by AUTigerGSUEagle on Jan 30, 2012 11:57 PM EST up reply actions  

A thousand pardons.

It was the topmost FanShot and I linked to it. My fault.

by Narrow Right on Jan 30, 2012 11:59 PM EST up reply actions  

No worries, not your fault.

My fault for placement of the thread in the first place.

Trying to kill as many Kerbals as Craig James has (allegedly) hookers.

by AUTigerGSUEagle on Jan 31, 2012 12:01 AM EST up reply actions  

...no you didn't.

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by jonfmorse on Jan 31, 2012 12:02 AM EST up reply actions  

here's what I'm doing.

going to bed right now.

but first, drinking at right now? ; drink a quart of water.

I'm addicted to perfection. Problem with my life is I was always also addicted to chaos. Perfect chaos.
The Twitters, I haz them.

by Illusions, Michael. on Jan 31, 2012 12:01 AM EST reply actions  

sirry my wife was kidnapped by a korean war criminal

I still love her though. isn’t she awesome!

I'm addicted to perfection. Problem with my life is I was always also addicted to chaos. Perfect chaos.
The Twitters, I haz them.

by Illusions, Michael. on Jan 31, 2012 12:06 AM EST up reply actions  

I know, I know, LOL NBA. But holy christ

"The fattest countries have the biggest tits" -Texas Jihad, 10-12-11

by hornedfrogs45 on Jan 31, 2012 12:40 AM EST reply actions  

Biggest jaw-dropping reveal

What was your favorite big reveal in the series?

For me, it was the end of aFfC – the confirmation that dragons are actually the source of magic on Westeros (which I had suspected) AND the revelation that the Maesters were actively trying to kill the Dragons in order to rid the world of magic. It definitely spun the whole Lord/Maester relationship into another dimension.

@papaalphakilo
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by PAK on Jan 31, 2012 10:28 AM EST reply actions  

That was a pretty big reveal.

I’m not sure what I’d say the biggest reveal would be. For me it was probably that Littlefinger is behind… everything. Or at least close to it. I knew he was a scheming bastard, but damn. Or maybe the shallow, let-down reveal that it was Joffrey who tried to have Bran killed after they left Winterfell.

Trying to kill as many Kerbals as Craig James has (allegedly) hookers.

by AUTigerGSUEagle on Jan 31, 2012 10:31 AM EST up reply actions   1 recs

I'm going with Littlefinger

That was the one that shocked the shit out of me.

My reaction to Snow getting “killed” was probably more angry, but that’s not really a reveal per se.

@amathews29: All hail Gustafson, Viking lord of Omaha!

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by T-Jax, Field General on Jan 31, 2012 10:38 AM EST up reply actions  

Honestly, for me it was "Varys is in cahoots with Illyrio".

The TV show bungles this up, although I understand their reasoning for uncloaking it so early.

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by jonfmorse on Jan 31, 2012 12:02 PM EST up reply actions  

Favorite scene!

@papaalphakilo
The people who suggest Brian Kelly should not curse are the reason the rest of us created profanities. - Spencer Hall

by PAK on Jan 31, 2012 10:48 AM EST reply actions  

This is an easy choice for me.

The Mountain that Rides vs. The Viper of Dorne might be my favorite fantasy literature scene ever. A Storm of Swords is a fantastic book from cover to cover but this scene is still riveting for me.

@papaalphakilo
The people who suggest Brian Kelly should not curse are the reason the rest of us created profanities. - Spencer Hall

by PAK on Jan 31, 2012 10:50 AM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Pigeon Pie, bitches.

@amathews29: All hail Gustafson, Viking lord of Omaha!

Twitterz

by T-Jax, Field General on Jan 31, 2012 10:54 AM EST up reply actions  

I mentioned it above

but I love the flashback scene where Ned meets Arthur Dayne at the Tower of Joy. I love the dialogue.

In the show, my favorite scene has been Khal Drogo announcing his intentions to conquer Westeros after the attempt on Dany’s life. So awesome.

"Every time you go to that cook-off you get drunk as a poet on payday!"

by DrewRusse on Jan 31, 2012 11:02 AM EST up reply actions  

Jon's execution of Janos Slynt

Either that or Tyrion killing Tywin. I feel awful for enjoying that last one so much, but I just did for some reason.

Trying to kill as many Kerbals as Craig James has (allegedly) hookers.

by AUTigerGSUEagle on Jan 31, 2012 11:10 AM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Tyrion killing Tywin. Yup, yup. I fist-pumped and cheered.

Cersei getting arrested was awesome, too.

So was Jaime burning her letter.

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by jonfmorse on Jan 31, 2012 12:05 PM EST up reply actions  

I forgot about Cersei getting arrested.

And Jaime’s figurative “fuck you” to his sister after all the literal interpretation of that phrase between the two was fantastic. I liked Jaime’s being honest in his recording the record of the events of his life in the Kingsguard, too. He’s really been a well-fleshed out character since he got a POV.

Trying to kill as many Kerbals as Craig James has (allegedly) hookers.

by AUTigerGSUEagle on Jan 31, 2012 12:10 PM EST up reply actions  

Lost a hand

Gained perspective

@amathews29: All hail Gustafson, Viking lord of Omaha!

Twitterz

by T-Jax, Field General on Jan 31, 2012 12:11 PM EST up reply actions  

Also have to admire how he hasn't been all emo about the hand

and instead has embraced it and is trying to adjust. You have to figure he’ll eventually be pretty bad ass with the sword in the other hand.

Trying to kill as many Kerbals as Craig James has (allegedly) hookers.

by AUTigerGSUEagle on Jan 31, 2012 12:21 PM EST up reply actions  

Tyrion killing Tywin is fantastic.

A scene that’s higher than I’d expect: Pod saving Tyrion’s life during the King’s Landing siege. Only thing he’s done in five books, but whatever.

by Chris Pendley on Feb 1, 2012 6:24 PM EST up reply actions  

Character you wish hadn't getten merked?

For me, it’s a toss-up between Robb and Oberyn Martell.

"Every time you go to that cook-off you get drunk as a poet on payday!"

by DrewRusse on Jan 31, 2012 1:00 PM EST reply actions  

The Viper of Dorne, zero question.

Oberyn Martell was pure awesomeness.

@papaalphakilo
The people who suggest Brian Kelly should not curse are the reason the rest of us created profanities. - Spencer Hall

by PAK on Jan 31, 2012 1:17 PM EST up reply actions  

I would agree with the Oberyn

only if Jon is not, in fact, dead.

Trying to kill as many Kerbals as Craig James has (allegedly) hookers.

by AUTigerGSUEagle on Jan 31, 2012 1:21 PM EST up reply actions  

"the Oberyn"

that’s what happens when you’re not paying attention and flip between typing “the Viper” and the guy’s name.

Trying to kill as many Kerbals as Craig James has (allegedly) hookers.

by AUTigerGSUEagle on Jan 31, 2012 1:27 PM EST up reply actions  

I'm going with Robb

MISS U YOUNG WOLF

@amathews29: All hail Gustafson, Viking lord of Omaha!

Twitterz

by T-Jax, Field General on Jan 31, 2012 1:58 PM EST up reply actions  

Lady-

Direwolves be badasses, yo.

My loyal heart avows no other.

"While you may not give a shit, @mlebowski313 is an unstoppable force of nature [at Words With Friends]" -T-Jax

by MikeLew on Jan 31, 2012 2:12 PM EST up reply actions  

Catelyn

If only to avoid the resurrection and formation of Stoneheart…

by Neodymium on Feb 1, 2012 5:19 PM EST up reply actions  

Pretty sure he is dead.

Someone is running around wearing his helm, but it’s not him.

Trying to kill as many Kerbals as Craig James has (allegedly) hookers.

by AUTigerGSUEagle on Feb 1, 2012 8:06 PM EST up reply actions  

There's a scene on the farm with Brienne in aFoC that makes me think he's still alive.

That big, dumb new guy at the monastery and the horse that’s pretty clearly Stranger look like Clegane. His storyline’s dead, I think, but I liked his character more than I expected.

by Chris Pendley on Feb 1, 2012 9:38 PM EST up reply actions  

Yeah, that's the prevailing theory.

And he definitely was one of the more interesting characters.

"Every time you go to that cook-off you get drunk as a poet on payday!"

by DrewRusse on Feb 2, 2012 8:16 AM EST up reply actions  

I don't think he's dead, either.

Clearly, someone stole his helm (was it Biter? Or Rorge? Or just another one of the Mummers).

I think he will end up in some sort of team with Jamie and Brienne. Shit, they might even declare for Jon Snow. Jamie seemed fond of Rhaegar, Brienne of Jamie, and Clegane seemed fond of the Starks (Sansa and Arya).

by Neodymium on Feb 2, 2012 2:12 PM EST up reply actions  

i this particular 'what if'.

seems likely, actually.

_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
GTHTSUN
I know can spel well

by CoastalCowbell on Feb 2, 2012 2:15 PM EST up reply actions  

Oh, definitely a What If moment.

But I do seem to recall Biter wearing the helm before Gendry killed him when he was trying to rape and kill Brienne.

by Neodymium on Feb 2, 2012 3:18 PM EST up reply actions  

DAMMIT

all of this makes me wanna take some days off work and reread em all…

_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
GTHTSUN
I know can spel well

by CoastalCowbell on Jan 31, 2012 1:20 PM EST reply actions  

Well, you bastards

I started re-reading GoT last night. My GPA hates you all.

@amathews29: All hail Gustafson, Viking lord of Omaha!

Twitterz

by T-Jax, Field General on Feb 1, 2012 1:53 PM EST reply actions  

My apologies to your GPA

Come on, you can do it. I kept fun/fiction books to read while in grad school reading THREEVE pages per week for a history MA, so I have faith in you.

Trying to kill as many Kerbals as Craig James has (allegedly) hookers.

by AUTigerGSUEagle on Feb 1, 2012 10:43 PM EST up reply actions  

Ah, yeah, that'll do it.

I was just working part time as a TA.

Trying to kill as many Kerbals as Craig James has (allegedly) hookers.

by AUTigerGSUEagle on Feb 2, 2012 10:33 AM EST up reply actions  

Obviously the full time gig keeps me busy

/makes threeve-hundred comments during working hours

@amathews29: All hail Gustafson, Viking lord of Omaha!

Twitterz

by T-Jax, Field General on Feb 2, 2012 10:40 AM EST up reply actions  

We do all agree that Sam has the Horn of Joruman?

And that Benjen found it and hid it in the hole with the black cloak before he went all Coldhands?

And Jon sent it south with Sam to Oldtown?

by Neodymium on Feb 2, 2012 3:19 PM EST reply actions  

I feel like Coldhands should be Benjen, but that Sam should have recognized him...

Also, whats going to happen with Sam?

He who rides a tiger cannot dismount

by Irishjugg on Feb 2, 2012 3:21 PM EST up reply actions  

I don't know where Sam is going

But I do think it’s likely he has the Horn of Joruman. I always thought Benjen was Coldhands too, but wouldn’t Bran have recognized him? I’m not sure what the deal there is.

Trying to kill as many Kerbals as Craig James has (allegedly) hookers.

by AUTigerGSUEagle on Feb 2, 2012 3:24 PM EST up reply actions  

Well, from what I have formed in my mind, Benjen's kind of Othered out and with Sam being so scared

It makes sense that he wouldn’t recognize him.

Plus, doesn’t he keep his face covered all of the time? Which is why Bran doesn’t recognize him?

As for Sam. His is one of the rolls that I haven’t quite figured out yet. Not that I’m certain I have everyone figured out completely. We’re talking about someone who thought Regulus Black was still alive, that he was a metamorphmagus and that he pretending to be Rufus Scrimgeour in order to hide from Voldemort.

grumbles something about how that would have been an epic ending…

by Neodymium on Feb 2, 2012 3:24 PM EST up reply actions  

this is what i gathered.
doesn’t he keep his face covered all of the time? Which is why Bran doesn’t recognize him?

_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
GTHTSUN
I know can spel well

by CoastalCowbell on Feb 2, 2012 3:39 PM EST up reply actions  

Huh, I must have completely missed that part.

Been meaning to reread aDwD soon, though. I always do that with new books. I know I blow through them quickly the first time because I want to read them. Then I go back and do a slower read to pick up on the details I know I missed the first time.

Trying to kill as many Kerbals as Craig James has (allegedly) hookers.

by AUTigerGSUEagle on Feb 2, 2012 3:42 PM EST up reply actions  

I cant really buy this argument though

All of the NW knows that Benjen dissappeared. They all knew what he looked like. Unless the argument is that Sam was to much of a scared little girl to be like “hey are you benjen” to a white walker that actually likes the watch, then I cant come up with any reason he wouldnt have been like, oh hey, is this benjen?

He who rides a tiger cannot dismount

by Irishjugg on Feb 2, 2012 3:42 PM EST up reply actions  

in the start of the 5th

Bran says (thinks) that he is too scared of the Ranger to look him in the face. I dunno. It being BenJen just makes too much sense. Plus he killed a bunch of men from the Wall that were tracking them (Bran saw that through his wolf).

_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
GTHTSUN
I know can spel well

by CoastalCowbell on Feb 2, 2012 3:47 PM EST up reply actions  

Eh, I suppose

the Sam was too much of a pussy thing bothers me about it though.

Obviously I think its Benjen, but I feel like GRRM wouldnt make something so glaringly obvious

He who rides a tiger cannot dismount

by Irishjugg on Feb 2, 2012 3:50 PM EST up reply actions  

But would Sam really recognize Benjen?

Trying to remember the timing of when Benjen went on his last ranging compared to when Sam turned up at the Wall. There might be some overlap, but it’s possible that he didn’t bump into him much if at all. And it’s been a few years since he vanished.

@amathews29: All hail Gustafson, Viking lord of Omaha!

Twitterz

by T-Jax, Field General on Feb 2, 2012 3:52 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Thats true

Sam definitely came long after Jon so its possible Benjen was already gone

He who rides a tiger cannot dismount

by Irishjugg on Feb 2, 2012 3:55 PM EST up reply actions  

Right

And it’s not like they had “MISSING” posters tacked up around Castle Black with Benjen’s photo on them.

@amathews29: All hail Gustafson, Viking lord of Omaha!

Twitterz

by T-Jax, Field General on Feb 2, 2012 3:56 PM EST up reply actions  

I feel like everyone immediately thought it was Benjen

and if they didnt, I feel like they should have…

It just seems like its too obvious to be true, and usually Occums Razor doesnt exactly apply to GRRM

He who rides a tiger cannot dismount

by Irishjugg on Feb 2, 2012 4:02 PM EST up reply actions  

He could have killed them in self-defense, though.

After all, Jon DID kill Halfhand (who was awesome and is one of the characters I wish hadn’t been whacked, but I understand why).

by Neodymium on Feb 2, 2012 4:31 PM EST up reply actions  

Well

Jon woldnt have been able to in a straight up fight, he said he was struggling during the fight.

Ghost bit his leg and Qorhin let him kill him

He who rides a tiger cannot dismount

by Irishjugg on Feb 2, 2012 4:36 PM EST up reply actions  

wait, who killed a bunch of men from the wall that were tracking him?

Im sort of lost in why we are talking about this

(sorry, crazy work day)

He who rides a tiger cannot dismount

by Irishjugg on Feb 2, 2012 4:45 PM EST up reply actions  

the Ranger.

the Other who led Bran & the other 2 kids north of the Wall.

_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
GTHTSUN
I know can spel well

by CoastalCowbell on Feb 2, 2012 4:53 PM EST up reply actions  

Well, a wight.

The Others are the crazy supernatural whatever things. The wights are the dead bodies brought to “life” like Coldhands.

Trying to kill as many Kerbals as Craig James has (allegedly) hookers.

by AUTigerGSUEagle on Feb 2, 2012 4:56 PM EST up reply actions  

dammit

you’re right. well, at least you know what i meant!

_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
GTHTSUN
I know can spel well

by CoastalCowbell on Feb 2, 2012 4:57 PM EST up reply actions  

He still has blue eyes, though, right?

I thought I remembered that. Or I could just be thinking of the wights that were raised in the prologue of book one.

by Neodymium on Feb 2, 2012 5:11 PM EST up reply actions  

Hmm

So Coldhands killed rangers? OR just random people/wights north of the wall.

I know he killed some wights, but I dont really get how that fits into the “so its benjen” thing

He who rides a tiger cannot dismount

by Irishjugg on Feb 2, 2012 5:30 PM EST up reply actions  

yeah, not sure why he killed them

but Bran saw the corpses though his wolf. they were all eaten up by the ravens & had black cloaks/clothing.

_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
GTHTSUN
I know can spel well

by CoastalCowbell on Feb 3, 2012 9:02 AM EST up reply actions  

Actually...

Didn’t Sam show up to the Wall AFTER Benjen had led his ranging? So he wouldn’t know what Benjen looked like! (I think I have that timing right…Benjen left shortly after Jon showed up, and then Sam showed up after Jon had already started training).

by Neodymium on Feb 2, 2012 4:29 PM EST up reply actions  

I think this is correct.

I forgot the part about Coldhands covering his face. So yeah, I guess Bran might not recognize him.

"Every time you go to that cook-off you get drunk as a poet on payday!"

by DrewRusse on Feb 2, 2012 4:30 PM EST up reply actions  

And Benjen didn't hang around Winterfell much.

Presumably, he took the Black before Bran was born. At least, I presume (because it fits in with my argument so well).

by Neodymium on Feb 2, 2012 4:32 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Or Bran.

You’d think Bran would recognize his own uncle.

"Every time you go to that cook-off you get drunk as a poet on payday!"

by DrewRusse on Feb 2, 2012 3:53 PM EST up reply actions  

Dunno if anyone is still reading this thread, but

I’m not the only one who thinks Sandor Clegane is the “Valonqar”, am I?

The “church” selects him as their champion in Cersei’s trial, he kills the Gregor-golem “Robert Strong”, fulfilling his life’s ambition, and gets to fuck up the Lannisters some more.

by Guynemer on Feb 21, 2012 11:28 PM EST reply actions  

I honestly think Sandor is dead.

Someone else took his helmet and is riding around with it. I don’t see Sandor letting anyone have it, and I doubt they’d leave him alive. Especially since I’m pretty sure it’s the same group he got into the fight with just before he died.

Trying to kill as many Kerbals as Craig James has (allegedly) hookers.

by AUTigerGSUEagle on Feb 22, 2012 9:42 AM EST up reply actions  

No way is he dead.

He was at that monastery that Brienne visited, the big hooded monk. There was a big, mean-tempered horse in the stables that could only be Stranger.

by Guynemer on Feb 22, 2012 10:26 AM EST up reply actions  

This was covered above but I'm pretty sure that Sandor is still alive.

Quoting someone from above:

“That big, dumb new guy at the monastery and the horse that’s pretty clearly Stranger looks like Clegane. His storyline’s dead, I think, but I liked his character more than I expected.”

I personally don’t think his storyline is dead. Once he kills his brother then I think he will wander off never to be seen again.

THEY LIKE MARIJUANA TO SMOKE AND ALTER THEIR MINDSET AND THINGS. -Dr. Norris Camacho

by IsayPetrinoYouSayPaterno on Feb 22, 2012 10:27 AM EST up reply actions  

Hmmmm, interesting.

I guess I didn’t pick up on that one. Would be interesting, that’s for sure. And only fitting for Sandor to be the one to off FrankenGregor.

Trying to kill as many Kerbals as Craig James has (allegedly) hookers.

by AUTigerGSUEagle on Feb 22, 2012 6:41 PM EST up reply actions  

Was it ever mentioned what happened to Robb's body after he was killed and the wolf's head was attached to it?

Just wondering what the chances are that wolf-headed Robb becomes a walker (or zombie, insert joke here) when the invasion comes.

THEY LIKE MARIJUANA TO SMOKE AND ALTER THEIR MINDSET AND THINGS. -Dr. Norris Camacho

by IsayPetrinoYouSayPaterno on Feb 22, 2012 10:30 AM EST reply actions  

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