SHEPARD SMITH HAS A WORD FOR OLE MISS FANS

Was the word “blowjob?”

“poontang”

More “The South” = “Racists” nonsense. C’mon Swindle, you’re better than that.

As Shep says, The South rose a long time ago (hence the mass exodus from folks up north here), but I see nothing wrong with the phrase “The South will rise again.” It’s certainly not racist, and if it is to you, it’s only because you wish it to be because you view ALL THINGS Southern as racist. Which is such a laughable concept it defies comprehension.

I’m an Ole Miss alum. Sad to say, our students are idiots. They were idiots when I was in school from 1999-2003, and I’m sure they will be idiots long after now.
I hate the chant. I was at the Chancellor’s speech that is quoted in the link. I’m thrilled that he’s trying to get rid of it.

I understand why people hate Ole Miss. If I didn’t love it so much, I would, too.

Orson, you know dick about Ole Miss. Miller Light is wholly beneath any Rebel fan to drink. Only that brew, fresh from a Colorado stream and delivered by the Snowman, preceded by a black trans am from Texarkana is worthy of the esteemed descendants of Faulkner…or Natty Light, because shit, 3 dollars a case man!

I was oblivious to existence of that video… My day is complete.

James, you’re right. Nothing wrong with the phrase whatsoever.

Completely innocuous!

It’s hard to imagine getting too terribly upset over something like this in Mississippi. It’s sorta like getting angry when a New York fan refers to someone as a “fuckin’ queer”.

@ 4,

Black athletes who know history love the confederate flag and phrases like “the south will rise again.” Because the confederate flag doesn’t stand for hate in a black players eyes, it a symbol of their white friends ancestors who died valiantly. The phrase the “the south will rise again” the black player knows is not a reference to the antebellum south but to the new south with AC and what not. Confederate flags and southern heritage homages are great for recruiting!!! Keep it up Ole Miss.

Faceinpalms.

There’s probably as much racism in the South as there is in Yankeeland, and I’m saying this from experience in both places. That said, one part didn’t try to leave the country over the right to ignore the national government.

Maybe it’s none of my business, but it almost seems that you’re wading perilously close to something that smacks of “politics.” I’m not referring to the chant (which is an entirely different debate) as much as the Fox News bashing, which has become particularly en vogue for one particular political party. “Shepherd Smith says it better than we can, though, AND HE’S ON FOX NEWS OH GOD HE CAN’T SAY ANYTHING BETTER THEY ACT LIKE CONSERVATIVES ON THAT CHANNEL HOLY FUCKING SHIT ANYTHING BUT CONSERVATIVES!!!”

If they were going to listen to anyone besides Eli Manning, then yes. You caught us, detective.

Do moronic Ole Miss fans not realize that the tune they sing they’re beloved song to came straight from the Union Army’s list of favorite fight songs?

C’mon do you really want to hang on to the tradition of getting your ass whipped! Apparently by this year’s debacle, they must.

I’m sure that means something, but I don’t know what it is.

Irish Need Not Apply

Sweet mother, that is some terrible singing, even by bleachers standards.

Also, we’ll just map out a dumb comment for you.

1. See mention of South and racism
2. Assume it means we accuse all Southerners of being racist (THUS IMPLICATING SELF AND ALMOST EVERYONE WE LOVE)
3. Take offramp to butthurt offense.

Just shorten your effort and say “See comment 16” if you plan to do this, and it will save everyone a lot of time.

The battle flag was taken off and replaced by a different confederate flag. Almost nobody noticed.

Orson,

Whenever you need someone to kick the matters of race, intelligence or culture, the north will always have the Southern man around, despite overwhelming evidence of racism, stupidity and lack-of-culture in equal amounts throughout this country.

@ 14: That is a heavy dose of irony right there, I have to admit. “The Battle Hymn Of The Republic” is one of the most unabashed Southern bashing songs ever written. It essentially equates the South to Satan’s minions.

Let them have their chant, its their school. Worry about where you live. Believe it or not some people care about their past and hold onto the values that our families held years ago.

Okay, so there’s some of you who think there’s a completely innocuous, non-offensive definition for the expression “The South Will Rise Again”. If that’s the case, I have three questions for you:

1) What is this definition, exactly?
2) Do you believe that the students in that video (or anyone who says it, for example people who yell it during the Stone Mountain laser light show every weekend) are using the expression the same way you think it means?
3) If there was a benign, non-offensive message that believe it means, why on earth would anyone want to attach a non-offensive use to a phrase that, at least to the majority of people, means something extremely offensive and insulting? Wouldn’t that be like trying to make the “C” word (you know the one I’m talking about) mean something like scrambled eggs? “Could I order the breakfast platter #4 with a side of c*#t please, with extra cheese.”

“Vol”, that’s some mighty quick-draw umbrage you got there. Sure you’re not a pinko commie libtard at heart? I hear that’s supposed to be our thing.

James—Straw man, argument not made.

@14-

Beat me to it.

Ah irony… thou art the sweet nectar that gets me through the day.

James C @ 19:

They exist everywhere, but not in equal amounts.

There are some bad pockets in the North as well.

my favorite comment re: ole miss, overheard at the UF/LSU game this year:

“ole miss don’t TAILGATE. they call it “grovin’” well what the fuck ever. it ain’t tailgatin’ if it’s CATERED"

as someone who’s threaded a smoked sausage through a pork tenderloin before, i’m inclined to agree.

i don’t really care about the racism part though.

On the individual basis this chant doesn’t bother me personally. However, in the grand scheme of things; ie a football stadium hosting recruits that Nutt desperately needs I can definitely see a reason for the termination.

After all, Ole Miss clearly doesn’t have the players to get to Atlanta right now; some 4 or 5 star recruits mom might not enjoy hearing “The South Will Rise Again” repeatedly on her sons visit to the stadium.

But then again I could be completely wrong. Keep it up guys, this is really the best battle to fight.

Seriously. You can pull this one item off the rhetorical table to eat without grabbing the tablecloth and pulling the whole dinner of unrelated dishes. We promise.

@20: The difference is, in the South, it’s ubiquitous. It’s a pattern. It’s celebratory. The pattern reflects a belief in the Lost Cause, the revisionist perspective on the antebellum South which envisions slavery as paternalistic, and Southern society as benignly paternalistic and ultimately as more worthy than the industrial North.

@21: What is the history? Explain, please, precisely what that history is and what it signifies.

This has been brewing for some time. Regardless of what the dumb-ass students who say the chant (who grew up wealthy in Atlanta, Dallas, ) believe is “cool” or “a tradition”, the fact remains that perception is reality. This is something that does not need to continue.

As an alum and M-Club member, I love the song, but not enough to have it become another connection to the dark times and attitudes (still, for some) held by a group of assholes who are intolerant and just plain stupid.

http://stuffwhitepeoplelike.com/2008/05/28/101-being-offended/

If Southern and if no express denouncement of slavery, then presumptively racist. Nice.

Claws—

If southern and around other southerner who express denouncement of slavery, then offended. It’s a fun cycle!

What’s with the ugly GAP/YeOldeNavy clothing?

Orson, it was not intended as a counterargument but rather a statement of (perceived) fact (from my viewpoint). Addressing it to you no doubt led to some confusion. My apologies.

“Like the Confederate flag flap here in Georgia, it will die off, and racists will latch onto something else because they’re not that smart and therefore easily distracted.”

Here you’ve implied that uttering the phrase “The South will rise again” makes you a racist. That’s what I take issue with in your initial post. Are there plenty of knuckleheads that are racist that utter this phrase? Sure. But that’s like saying anyone who shoots a gun is a criminal because lots of criminals use guns. The phrase — just like the Confederate battle flag — has different meanings for different people. That some use them to make a racially divisive statement towards folks of other races is truly tragic. But you, nor anyone else, can know what’s in the hearts and minds of EVERYONE that says “The South will rise again.”

That phrase to me means that the South will return to a place of great prosperity — for ALL people, black, white, and otherwise. And I think we have. The migration numbers of folks within this country’s borders bears that theory out.

But still this persistent notion carries on of the South as a backwards place rife with racism on every street corner. That’s the perception that irks me, and when you paint everyone that says, “The South will rise again” as racists, that perception carries on.

Jesus Orson, where did that picture come from? The most racist Curious George book ever?

Because The Man in the Yellow Hat looks PISSED.

This stuff blows my mind. There’s so much to love about the south, why celebrate the part where a lot of them killed members of the US military so the landed gentry could continue to own people?

I’ve got some alternate cheers, if you’re interested:
“PELLAGRA FREE SINCE ’43!”
“PEOPLE FROM THE NORTH CAN’T COOK WORTH A FUCK!”
“SUNDRESSES AND BOURBON AND HARRY CREWS! NUTS TO ALL THE REST!”

I mean, I’m proud to be Irish-descended, but I don’t go around bragging about Draft Riots or Tammany Hall.

So strange.

Touche, sir! I just assume we all disapprove of it and don’t need to abolish certain traditions because, God forbid, they celebrate Southern heritage, in order to show our moral opposition to slavery and racism.

For the south to rise again, in a non-civil warish way, wouldn’t it have to had “risen” once before? Perhaps they are advocating a rise of a agricultural south that relies on cotton and tobacco and spurning the new manufacturing plants popping up around the south.

Or they just want to be “ironic” and “controversial” because they can. Similar to how German youths yell “Deutchland Uber Alles” at soccer matches just to get under the skin of older folks.

What do you expect from Douchebag U?

Not white. That video made me gag.

 Let’s get a time machine, change their color, and ship them all back a hundred years,
speaking of those singing.

Ole Miss fans should focus less on celebrating “heritage” and more on “having a left tackle who can block daylight.”

@39 – nah, just stupid.
@40 – Glad you could add something useful to the discussion.

Something tells me chanting “The South WIll Rise Again” after a song isn’t some long held tradition dating back generations at Ole Miss.

I could be wrong.

I thought they were referring to the south rising up with an increased manufacturing presence, what with the lower cost structure due to the lack of labor unions and all…

Someone from Cincinnati is actually looking down on others for their handling of race relations?

@4

You’re right. “The South Will Rise Again” is not, in itself, racist. However, it sure as hell is guilty by association.

@46 Whew, I’m so glad its 2001, new millennium baby!

Oh wait no, that was awhile ago.

And I’m not looking down on others for their “handling of race relations”, but for saying that loaded words and phrases from the civil war don’t have some intrinsic meanings that will never be shaken..

I’m an Ole Miss alum; and, TSWRA needs to go. Shep is spot on. I used to wave a rebel flag when I was in college and I thought the same way that Shep did. I don’t wave it anymore; and, I fully understand how the rest of the country views it. I can live without it, myself. The chant TSWRA needs to go. End of store, no debate. Just stop doing it; or, stop playing FDWL. Fuck ‘em if they don’t get it. They’re in college now; and, they’ll appreciate it after they’ve gotten out and worked in the real world for a few years. It’s time that Ole Miss students and the rest of the state of Mississippi woke up and quit living in the fucking Civil War. It’s over, we lost; and, it’s time to move on for God’s sake.

James C, while your argument may be valid. It’s useless. It doesn’t matter what it means literally; it matters what it is perceived to mean. This isn’t a bunch of students from Grambling or Alabama A&M or Jackson State University chanting TSWRA, this is a bunch of students from Ole Miss chanting TSWRA; and, they can’t even chant it in harmony. So not only is it perceived as racist, it’s sung out of tune and sounds like shit. So, let’s get rid of it and do it now.

and, pic6bamr, Ole Miss students wouldn’t drink natty light unless it was the end of the semester and they were flat ass broke. They tend to stick with miller light and bud light for beer; but, mostly, they consume hard liquor. :)

Keep in mind these are college kids we are talking about…and many of those that are running around decrying the chant are doing so while wearing Che Guevera t-shirts and Mao caps. Thie hypocracy knows no bounds

The chant, not being part o fthe official university sponsored whatever, is solely within the realm of the students/fans that chant it. Trying to ban it could easily lead to a Freedom of Speech issue/lawsuit.

PS; IF Smith et al thought the flag was something that was hurting the image of Ole Miss a few years ago then why didn’t they address the chant then? Were they just waiting to react to media rather than being actually self-motivated to change their image?

PPS: I wonder if some people think that stating “Go To Hell LSU” is offensive?

@ 47 That’s a more accurate statement than a cut-and-dried TSWRA = Racist. But if we’re going to give credence to guilty by association, I can make the assertion that all Yankees must be glow-in-the-dark orange guido douchebags because of this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=97CtEReZEaQ

Slippery slope.

turrible ill tell ya.

That should have read, “end of story,” not “end of store,”.

@chuy #45

Oh now its about Labor huh? Bourgeois scum!

@42, Orson wait you mean Ole Miss isn’t a football or recruiting powerhouse?

Both sides are failing when this is the biggest story coming from Oxford in early November.

But then again Houston Nutt going to Shreveport after being preseason top 10 probably doesn’t generate much press.

@ 49 “James C, while your argument may be valid. It’s useless. It doesn’t matter what it means literally; it matters what it is perceived to mean.”

This is true, and why I would never put a Confederate battle flag on my car (yes, I drive a Corolla, not a jacked-up F250) or scream this at a football game.

“That phrase to me means that the South will return to a place of great prosperity — for ALL people, black, white, and otherwise. And I think we have. The migration numbers of folks within this country’s borders bears that theory out.”

So, you’re saying the South was once before in a place of great prosperity? When the hell was that? Prior to the advent of AC, I mean?

First off, I am an Ole Miss alum. Secondly, this is going to be long, so excuse the novel. Third, if the students can’t stop with the stupid chant, it’s time to get rid of the song. I’ve said this in this same argument before—this is a matter of perception vs. reality.

The reality is that LSU’s mascot is the tiger, named for the confederate unit from Baton Rouge. LSU still has people flying purple and gold confederate flags at their tailgates. But somehow, LSU is not percieved to be as racist of a place as Ole Miss. Why? Because of perception.

Another reality is that Ole Miss has probably taken more steps to fight the perception of racism, and to atone for “past sins” than anyone else in the country. While this has helped the perception of racism associated with Ole Miss, it has not erased it completely.

Sometimes, perception is more important than reality, at least in terms of the making of decisions. This could be because people tend to go with their gut feelings, or that Americans are too lazy or impatient to research facts, or because maybe perceptions are just fun (like stereotypes!). But whatever the reason, the PERCEPTION of racism in Mississippi and especially at Ole Miss has, at least for some, become a reality. That ridiculous chant does nothing to benefit Ole Miss and only serves to further the perception of racism.

Some of these people in favor of this chant will say “But it’s tradition!” Well, it’s not. I was there from 1998-2002, and I never heard it once, and I didn’t miss a game. Other arguments may be that the kids that are saying it aren’t really racist, and that they even have black friends. While I’m sure that they aren’t part of an underground KKK, and they may even be best friends with a black person, that doesn’t change the fact that to everyone that doesn’t know this person, his chanting TSWRA results in the perception that he hopes one day for the Ole South to rise again, complete with slavery or sharecropping or Jim Crow laws or whatever racism means to that particular person.

Again, I’m not saying that this is REALITY, but it is undeniably PERCEPTION. That leads us to the next logical question: “Should we change our behavior or traditions (like playing FDWL) in order to fight a perception?”

There may exist some cases where the “right” course of action is to stay the course and say that we won’t change for anyone, or to say that we can not let perceptions influence us and alter reality. And perhaps the danger of changing ones actions to fight perception is that it only helps reinforce the belief that the perception was actually a truth.

This is NOT one of those times.

This is a perfect time to take a step forward. I believe that the chant makes certain members of the “Ole Miss family” uncomfortable, because of the racist connotations and perceptions behind the words. But if making an entire race of people feel this way isn’t enough to make you want to stop yelling a cheer that has been around for a few years, then at least consider how it could affect you.

That chant does nothing but give fuel to other SEC coaches, who encourage the racist perception to further their goals, whether it be recruiting or otherwise. (And yes, I know that we have a lot of black guys on the team, and obviously they enjoy Oxford enough to sign with us and play for Ole Miss. But wouldn’t it be easier for the coaches if they didn’t have to deal with a kid from out of state coming in for a visit believing that the town is full of racists, like he’s been told by others? How many kids over the years have we seen visit from CA or even Louisiana, who after the visit remark on how it was nothing like they heard from others, and that they were told it was a racist place? Imagine how much better it would be if we didn’t have to start off behind the 8 ball because of these perceptions.)

This is an instance where the perception is stronger than the reality, and if it takes getting rid of the song to help end the stupidity, I’m all for it. I enjoy FDWL, but hearing that chant ruins it for me, as I find myself dreading the end.

/end rant

@ 35 James C: Your analogy is flawed because most people recognize non-criminal uses for guns, but you haven’t yet made your case that there is a prevalent non-racist use for the phrase in question.

You’re absolutely right, Orson or anyone else can’t know what’s in the hearts and minds of everyone who says “the South will rise again.” The same can be said for those who use derisive terms for people of other ethnicity, nationality, sexuality, etc. “You can’t know what that guy really thinks about black people just because he called that guy a n*****!” Maybe to the his hypothetical wordsmith, n***** means “paragon of virtue, strength, and nobility to whom I would pledge my sword in the defense of Helm’s Deep,” but a lifetime of experience has taught us that isn’t the correlation. In the strictest sense, I suppose you’re right, but we can make a damn good inference, and those who don’t want to be painted with that brush should probably stop begging to be painted.

See rjsplow’s third point @22. There are plenty of ways to express what you claim to want to express that don’t also entangle you in a horrific chapter of history.

To me, “the South will rise again” conjures up images of That Dog & the Army of Northern Virginia. But then again, that’s just me. But yes, continue to piss off large segments of your recruiting base by drunkenly chanting above statements at football games, if your “heritage” demands so.

Signed,
White Southerner, Sakerlina ’04

First up, so I can make sure that people don’t take this out of context, I am in favor of them not chanting it.

Having said this, I’m also tired of this popular misconception that everyone in the South is racist, especially if they utter that phrase. It’s bullshit.

BTW, I also tired of the high and might re-invention of what the Civil War was over. “The Lost Cause” is extremely offensive. It goes right up there with, “The Civil War was about slavery”

I mean, it was so obvious that it was about slavery. Look at all those rich plantation owners who fought in the war for the South. There wasn’t any poor white men who didn’t own slaves in that war, no sirree bob.

The American Revolution and the Civil War were both fought for the exact same reasons. The winners write the history books. Look at all the slaves Lincoln freed (Zero).

If the war was about slavery, why did Lincoln wait almost two years to write the Emancipation Proclamation?

Hell, just read the first couple of paragraphs at the link below.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emancipation_Proclamation

@51 And there’s that straw man again. Read the post again. There’s no assertion that everyone in Mississippi or all Ole Miss fans are racist. There’s an assertion that the people caught on camera chanting what is considered to be a racist phrase are racist. That’s not guilt by association. That’s just guilt.

someday we’ll all realize we’re all made from stars, and that we’re all connected as human beings through our biology, chemistry, ability to percieve. We’re all composed of atoms and light, we’re all the same thing.

Oh, and Joe Pa doesn’t need a cooler to poop in.

I can understand an argument to get rid of the phrase to improve recruiting. Or just to not offend people who may infer an intent of racism that the speaker does not intend.

Orson, I cannot understand how you’re trying to deny you assume people who use the phrase are stupid rednecks. The plain meaning of your confederate flag passage is just that. I can’t see another reasonable interpretation.

Phocion – you said

“The chant, not being part o fthe official university sponsored whatever, is solely within the realm of the students/fans that chant it. Trying to ban it could easily lead to a Freedom of Speech issue/lawsuit.”

You’re joking, right? Every Athletic Association has a Code of Conduct provision concerning what fans may say/do within the stadium confines. If the university believes TSWRA violates the Conduct Code, it has the absolute right to remove the offending parties and most likely permanently ban ticket holders from ever getting more tickets. Freedom of speech stops at the stadium entrance.

So those idiots who want to protect their freedom of speech can go stand on the street corner and sing it to their hearts content. The rest of the civilized world can simply enjoy the game without listening to racially divisive language.

The problem with the paranoid and delusional (and, trust me, the half of the student body in favor of the chant fit the bill perfectly) is that the more you point out their paranoia and delusions, the more firmly entrenched they become in them.

See: 9/11 truthers, Scientologists, people who continued to listen to Dave Matthews after their sophomore year in high school, etc.

As an Ole Miss alumnus who is firmly against the chant and vocally so, I become increasingly frustrated with these idiots. They truly think that this is somehow a subversive attack on their freedoms and identity and liken it to (I shit you not) Adolf Hitler taking the Sudaetenland (I swear to God I am not fucking with you here).

And, commentors who are accusing Swindle of labelling all Southern folk as racist: like he said much earlier, he himself is from the South. He lives in Atlanta-ish and is a huge SEC homer like the most of y’all. Chill already.

@39:

It’s from a song. That was written in the immediate aftermath of the Civil War. Where the entire US South, already in bad shape from previous decades of plundering by Northern industrialists, was pretty well and truly savaged. Everything those people knew, their art, culture, society, what limited industrial base they managed to get, gone. Because they dared try to secede from a government who repeatedly (and eventually succeeded) in changing the union they had signed up for from a loose federation, with only minor power at the federal level, and the strongest power at the city level, to one where power resided mostly at the top. Yes, it was a pretty stupid and wrong issue that pushed that button, that even most of the battle-flag waving rednecks will even happily point out was wrong.

As a statement, it says that despite being long abused, then beaten, then crushed, that that society, their culture, art and literature, it would all rise again. That they would recover.

And they did. But the song remained a rallying cry. A statement of rebellion against being taken advantage of. For a long time, they were to the north, what colonies were to Great Britain… an agricultural backwater that nobody wanted to send money to, but wanted all the agricultural production they could get from it. And the south HAS risen from that. But it’s become a long, old, tradition. The south has since gotten an industrial base, but in terms of money and development and momentum it’s still miles behind the north.

So yeah, I don’t see anything racist about “The south will rise again”. Slavery sucked. Hell, it’s part of what led to the fall on the South, both in terms of directly leading to the attempt at secession, and in terms of making it unattractive for economical development (Why bother building factories there when agricultural work is so much more profitable?). In order to rise again, it had to reform itself. And that phrase is more appropriately celebrating the reformation of the south, than the antebellum south that had proceeded it.

@62 so racism isn’t defined by the intent of the person saying it, but instead by what other people consider “racism”? That is manifestly against any meaning of the word.

To determine that someone is racist solely on the basis of what other people consider what he says to be racist is absurd. Just consider any example where “other people” hold a ridiculous interpretation of racism.

RCR, you knew you could draw me in with that bit about LSU. While yes, The Fightin’ Tigers were named for a Civil War unit. We haven’t celebrated that for decades. Instead, we have venerated our mascot, Mike the Tigers in the decades since.

And yes, of course, there are some at LSU that want to hold onto that heritage of the Fightin’ Tigers as much as there are those at OM who want to hold onto TSWRA. Witness your aforementioned purple and gold confederate flags. I hate em and they need to go. But that’s free speech and it gives us the ability to recognize those jackasses when they pipe up. There will always be those people. That heritage is a part of history and will not be erased. But I agree with what you say that it’s time to move on and let it go. Overall, smart words and we’re on the same side.

Just don’t go claiming we tout some old dead soliders. Hell, maybe we could. I hate our current fucking Tiger logo.

Nah, we should stick with Tigers, just come up with some better graphic depictions.

Out Here in the West Coast Dept:

Out here in Calif we have no racism! Well, just a bit against the Asians, Hispanics, Blacks, Cambodians, Hmongs, Native Americans, Indians, Texans….ahhh….

….nevermind…

@65

Need to go review your constitutional history….Ole Miss is a public institution and the stadium is a public facility, not private. No diff. than a street corner regardless of what any Code of conduct that may attempt to take away constitutional rights.

@65 are you kidding? A state entity cannot enact a code that is unconstitutional and simply get around that code. That code could only be upheld if the phrase was not protected by freedom of speech. And it would be darn near impossible to remove that phrase from that protection because it’s so ambiguous.

That’s why the attempt to ban confederate flags at games on got so far as banning the poles they came with, as a health hazard.

@ 39,

“Deutschland Ueber Alles” are the first three words of the German National Anthem. It doesn’t really compare, I don’t think.

@65

You really have no grasp of what is and isn’t constitutional, do you? A university asking people to behave in a certain way on university property is not a violation of your constitutional rights. It simply isn’t. Sorry.

HobeG8r,
Outlawing the students from saying it won’t work. Last time I checked, cow bells have been outlawed from Miss. St. for the past ten years.

@62 Your counterargument is extremely flawed. I’ll just leave it at that.

Lunchtime, beeches! My Michelina’s Meal Will Rise Again!

As a current Ole Miss student, many of my fellow students are fucking idiots. The most vocal supporters of yelling TSWRA tend to be the many out of state students who come here. For some reason, they have it in their minds that Ole Miss is the last bastion of the true Old South, even though it’s not nor should it be.

I don’t think people are yelling it as a racial epithet. I think they say it as some sort of expression of regional or personal pride and because everyone else yells it. What they don’t understand, however, is that when you yell something like that you don’t have to opportunity to stop the music and announce over the P.A. system “What you just heard was not meant to be racist, but rather a desire for economic and cultural revival in this, our Great South”. Instead, but just take it as pretty much everybody outside the South takes it, as stupid, backwoods, and racist.

 Because of our bloody and shameful past, people are going to shit on Ole Miss and Mississippi when given the chance anyway. Yelling shit like TSWRA just puts the ball on a tee for them.

My bad, I meant @64, @Old South.

The slurs tossed my (caucasian) and my then girlfirend’s (asian) way from not one but TWO passing cars while we leisurely strolled the square one non-football Saturday about 7 years ago? Not perception. Definitely reality. Although I genuinely appreciate the eloquent defense of your Oxford, #58.

And that said, I still think Oxford is one damned fantastic town. Just one with some cultural maturity issues within the under 25 set.

OK, not a southerner, but everyone is being a bit too Freudian. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. I am going to chalk this up to making a big deal about this just makes things overall worse.

What is an Alabamian’s favorite four words? Thank God for Mississippi!

I can’t view the video but I think it’s been summed up and it sounds as if George Wallace would approve, which is frightening.

To Joshua – I am equally disgusted at seeing the confederate flag at Bama tailgates. Move on already.

This debate isn’t going to go anywhere without people being able to distinguish the difference between the following 2 phrases: 1) “what you said is racist” 2) “you are racist”. Trying to make this conversation about #2 when it’s about #1 is cheap.

For more, see http://www.illdoctrine.com/2008/07/how_to_tell_people_they_sound.html

I’ve lived in the south all my life, and I really can’t understand anyone trying to argue that the phrase doesn’t strike a racial chord. Like it or not, fact or fiction, that’s the perception. When people hear “the south will rise again”, it’s associated with revolution. Not that anyone takes it seriously. It’s comically douchey. But I personally hate seeing this shit because it makes it more socially acceptable to lump everyone with a southern accent together as nothing but bible-thumping, science-hating, racist, lynching, sister-fucking troglodytes, when really a majority of the time only half that is true. The phrase is stupid, the south was rebuilt and no one wants to secede; save that shit for Texas.

On an unrelated note, I somehow ran into a surprisingly coherent Orson at the WLOCP, photographing what can either be described as a floating death-star, or exactly what you’d expect an unreasonably wealthy Florida booster to park outside the Landing. It must be said he was very cool, except when he accused me of being a racist.

From: The Office of David Duke
Re: Ole Miss

What’s the big deal?

Sincerely,

“The Double D”

@82

You can’t pull rank over Mississippi in the “wow they did something racist” department a couple of sentences before acknowledging the presence of the stars and bars at Bama tailgates.

As a native Mississippian, an Ole Miss law alum, son of Ole Miss alums, husband to an Ole Miss girl and father of (more than likely since we live in MS) at least one potential future Ole Miss student (with a LSU undergrad that claims my football loyalty*), there are many things about MS of which I am proud. We give more per capita than the residents of any other state. We’ve got a rich literary tradition from Falkner, Welty, Williams, Ford, Foote and Percy down to Grisham and Iles. Much of what is great about Mississippi is on display at UM. And the sundresses, let’s talk about the sundresses for a minute. UM is lapping everybody in that department. I know they are. I married one.

TSWRA needs to go for the same reason the battle flag needed to go. People were pissed, but Oxford/UM was still a great place to experience college football and it will be after the TSWRA issue fades. This is not an attack on our “heritage” – whatever that means – since you can still love your family, work hard, give to others when you are able, say yes ma’am and no ma’am, drink whiskey in the duck blind, eat fried chicken til your stomach hurts and visit your grandparents on Sunday, regardless of what chants go on at Vaught-Hemingway.

*I love Oxford, but I got to dance with the one that brung me.

This is not an attack on our "heritage" – whatever that means – since you can still love your family, work hard, give to others when you are able, say yes ma’am and no ma’am, drink whiskey in the duck blind, eat fried chicken til your stomach hurts and visit your grandparents on Sunday, regardless of what chants go on at Vaught-Hemingway.

I’m weeping and saluting, sir. Please consider running for public office.

I’ve said it before, and I’ll say it again…

Jevan Sneed has weak Bama Bangs game.

/His hairline will rise again?

I’ve made my feelings known, particularly at Red Cup (as QHHT). but I’ll put in in clear terms. I am not just an alum, but a born-and-raised-in-Oxford alum at that. Parents still live there, sister still works there. TSWRA needs to go. If that means FDWL needs to go in order for that to happen, so be it (that’s why God gave us iPods; I already loaded it last night).

And if the students still yell it, go extreme. Close the student section for the Tennessee game as punishment; both to the idiot students that yell it and the good ones who don’t. That way the good ones will beat the shit out of the bad ones for making them miss the game. “Won’t that look bad on CBS? Won’t that give Tennessee an advantage?” Fuck it; we were going to lose that one anyway. I don’t give a shit if they’re “legal adults.” In my humble opinion most are nothing but teenagers no longer under their parents’ direct supervision.

My God, I have finally become one of those old farts who wants those damn kids off her lawn.

I think everyone is missing the real issue here, which is rap music.

@Bobby Decatur

Gawdalmighty. I’m sorry.

100 Evan and Cokes to you, 87. One of the finest sentences penned about, hell, anywhere truly Southern this side of Padgett Powell .

I might try to argue Grisham off that list though. Even if something tells me you’d end up winning that argument in the end

@92 don’t be, we suffered the fools gladly. It’s a beautiful place full of lovely people regadless.

The problem with threading comments in a section such as this is that they’re not actually threaded. I assumed that there were pieces being put together that were not explicitly linked.

@68 Old South: see my comment @59. I agree that racism is mostly about intent. But how do you determine intent? Earlier you said “I can understand an argument to get rid of the phrase to improve recruiting. Or just to not offend people who may infer an intent of racism that the speaker does not intend.” This indicates an understanding that the common perception of the phrase is offensive. This has been explained to the students in question as well. I’m more than willing to excuse ignorance in such cases, but I construe continued utterances of offensive language in circumstances where the known effect is that others take offense as a representation of intent. I think most people do. To be fair, I regret my phrasing. It would be a more precise expression of my viewpoint to say “the statement is racist” than to say “the people are racist.” (point taken 83)

@76 James: Without much more to go on, it’s difficult to know how to correct the flaws you observed. I hope the above clarification helps.

And here I was worried that the Brandon Spikes eye-gouging-that-wasn’t was all we were going to talk about this week…

“As a statement, it says that despite being long abused, then beaten, then crushed, that that society, their culture, art and literature, it would all rise again. That they would recover. And they did. But the song remained a rallying cry”

#67, I get all of that, but what got rose over pretty good after reconstruction was the 15th amendment. Never great for anyone to get caught in the crossfire, but there it is.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fifteenth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution

Maybe the song just needs someone clever to pen another verse. The South finally rose after Selma. From one end of the country to the other we’re all responsible for our corrupt politicians.

That should have been “From one end of the country to the other NOW we’re ALL responsible for our corrupt politicians”.

@86. I can and I did. Enjoy! Seriously though, the flag is everywhere around the south and there’s no getting past that. However, the prevalence of the old south attitude and imagery is certainly greater in your state compared to others. No I don’t have any factual evidence, but that is certainly the perception. And as someone here pointed out, perception is unfortunately at times reality.

I am an Ole Miss alumni. I have been going to every home football game since 1998. After the Arkansas game this year was the first time I had heard this being sung. It’s not a “chant”, it’s adding lyrics to a song. It’s stupid! It has nothing to do with Ole Miss and now the students have their boxers in a bunch because they are being told what to do. What started out as a handful of idiots that couldn’t really be heard has now turned into a pissing contest between the students, administration, and the media. The students are going to lose. Period! Ole Miss has worked too hard to improve our image. We want Ole Miss to be a place where everyone is welcome and can enjoy themselves at the different events on campus. I would really hate to see “From Dixie With Love” stop being played, but that is the only option if the students keep doing what they are doing. As usual, a few jackasses ruin it for everyone else.

I have nothing to add that has not already been said by more eloquent voices. But I will add my disgust to this display by people that are ignorant of how their actions, or in this case their words, are perceived.

@74: You might what to get a little more chalk for your hands because your grasp of the Constitution seems a bit tenous. “Asking” and “Banning” are two different things.

While we are at this, can Bryant Denny discontinue the use of “Dixieland Delight?” Maybe replace with “Afternoon Delight”?

Not You @67

That’s a pretty unconvincing explanation of the political economies of northern versus southern states. The major landowners in the south continued precisely the type of economic growth that had been put in place during the colonial era: large landholdings, high concentration of land, profit from export of primary sector agricultural goods, suppression of labor costs through slavery, all maintained through political alliance of coastal traders and landowners. The north didn’t create that, it was their efforts to institute protectionist barriers to trade that would have crippled the export business of the south.

Why do you think the British were happy to help the Confederacy? It wasn’t because they were slavery enthusiasts – they’d even managed to (officially) ban it by then – but because their economy was based on extracting resources, processing them in the UK, and exporting them back. They forced India into that position and they used investment to create those kinds of trading patterns in Argentina and Brazil.

It’s possible that the northern states were reinforcing existing economic patterns pre-Civil War but they sure as hell didn’t create them and they sure as hell weren’t trying to maintain them. If the Confederacy had succeeded in remaining outside the Union, I would put money on those states looking like Brazil now, economically speaking. (Whether or not there would have been samba and bunda outside of New Orleans, I cannot say.)

Southern landowners made and maintained the pre-war economic system you described. Not the north.

dc trojan (104): so you’re sayin’ we’d have the Olympics? Sweet.

@42 Quite possibly the best quote I have seen regarding the issue.

Whoever started this chant should be hit in the junk with a sandpaper covered crowbar.

RaginCajunRebel and Jim Halpert smashed it out of the park.

Everyone else here is completely missing the point, arguing about agricultural economy and heritage and what not. While you are debating and singing, LSU and Tennessee just stole your recruits by saying “lol racists lolz”

What’s important is not what was said, but rather what was heard.

The Godfrey Show has an excellent take on all of this:

http://thegodfreyshow.com/2009/11/04/the-first-and-last-thing-ill-say-about-tswra/comment-page-1/#comment-9158

As a fairly recent graduate of Ole Miss, I can assure you WE didn’t chant this stupid shit. It’s not a tradition. The students doing it should be tied to a tree in the Grove in full LSU regalia on gameday. And the administration couldnt’ have handled the situation with any less common sense.

Ole Miss – when it rains it pours shit buckets.

NOLACane @107 – I’m sure you’re right, I just can’t help myself.

RCR @ 105 – I don’t see why not. If the IOC is willing to give the Olympics to a city with the organizational skills of a plastered 5 year old, I don’t see why NOLA shouldn’t have been in with a chance – although they are overqualified next to Rio. I would have paid good money to see that, though.

From Godfrey’s column:

“Write the word "no" on any inanimate object in the whole of Lafayette County and within hours 50 former high school honor roll students will attempt to destroy it, imbibe it, deface it, copulate with it or at the very least drunkenly ask it for a ride to Chevron.”

A succinct description of the present student body, or frankly even past student bodies. Hell basically anybody between the ages of 18 and 23, ever. Make that object “cow” and replace “Lafayette” with “Oktibbeha” and you’ve got State.

In response to this whole situation: See also-AIDS, Gayer than.

DC @ 109: Have you ever been to Rio? I love NOLA, but NOLA to Rio is like Jr.High flag football to the SEC.

Holy mother of pearl. Shepard Smith has the gayest eyes in network news.

From #37: "PEOPLE FROM THE NORTH CAN’T COOK WORTH A FUCK!"

This is your compromise solution, right here.

My cousin, Rob Evans, was the head basketball coach at the University of Mississippi (I refuse to use the other term). He had great success at the school and made great friends, but the presence of the Rebel flag and the constant insensitivity of people to the disdain African Americans have toward the Confederacy and the symbols of the Confederacy, meant that he found it difficult to convince black recruits to come to that school. It’s too bad that short sighted people don’t understand that African American families gather at Thanksgiving and talk about the cruelty of slavery, and the terrible civil rights injustices done under the Rebel flag as a symbol of white supremacy. This isn’t some history book stuff guys. This is my grandmother talking about living in South Texas, afraid of night riders coming to shoot black men. Of graveyards full of my relatives. And to hear people sing a song that says the South will rise again, says that you are hoping for a future that is represented by that past. And that is an abomination.

@Lawrence 115

Durant, is that you?

Wow… this is the most epic thread since some one said something unflattering about Bobby Lee (I believe it was the same audio clip in which the other Bobby [Bowden] was mocked – “They deeyud, they deeyud, but they’re good keeyuds”). Nothing gets Southerners on both sides more riled up than a heritage vs. hatred discussion.
       But the bottom line is, as I learned at a court mandated AA meeting, you can’t judge others by their actions and yourself by your intentions. I doubt the Ole Miss students are deliberately trying to sound racist and are just performing what they see as some sort of tribal rite, but that doesn’t matter. Anything remotely controversial that happens at Ole Miss is going to be filtered through the prism of the past, much of which is shameful.
      The changes made in the culture there are something to be proud of and no other school in the SEC has done more to dig themselves out of a hole (no mattter how self-engineered) than Ole Miss. But the fact remains, Ole Miss will be seen as the barometer of residual southern racism by any casual observer of The South.
      So fair or not, the Rebs need to hold themselves to a higher standard than other schools.

also – Thanks DC Trojan for the succinct history lesson – a dispassionate look at the economic motives of people is usually the best way to understand large movements.

I think one problem is that these younguns do not know what “rise” means in this context. I was a reasonably well read young redneck in my teens, and I thought it meant “rise to the top,” to excel, or rise out of poverty and defeat and whatnot.

It does not mean this, young ignorant people. In the 19th century sense, it means rise in armed revolt. As in start another retarded war so that hereditarily rich people won’t have to pay wages to their farm workers, and can buy and sell them literally as livestock. That’s what The South Will Rise Again means. Stop it.

Christ – didn’t mean to sound like a Marxist in my shout-out to DC Trojan

I think we can all agree that LSU can go to hell.

Clearly, they also need singing lessons.

Two things:

1) If a chant is chanted and no one can understand it, is it racist? Because I had no idea what those guys were saying.
2) They’re nicknamed the Rebels, with an old south aristocrat in their logo. If this chant is offensive, how is that not?

@DC Trojan

First, let me just say that this discussion is purely on the reconstruction and the prewar south, and I have no interest in being apart of this Ole Miss discussion. I am having trouble believing that the Southern economy simply “picked up where it left off” after the war. First, yes, the South economy wasn’t exactly industrialized prewar, but the Civil War destroyed the South’s infrastructure, whereas the North the untouched. So much so that the South’s GDP wasn’t even half compared to what is was before. (I think) So in the subsequent years post 1865, much of the income generated by the South economy with diverted from investment for continued growth to rebuilding roads, bridges, schools, railroads, etc. Its like with the Solow model, none of the income generated by the production function went into producing more capital. So I am not so sure that the South continued its economic structure post war because it was desirable, I think it is more likely that the South had no choice. I am sure that many a plantation owner would have loved nothing more that to own a textile factory and capture those profits, but you cant industrialize without large investments in capital and the south really have no income for it. Coupled with the fact that the war reduced the GDP by more than 50% (think), it was impossible for the southern economy to be able to grow since it was impossible to invest vs. rebuild.

Granted, you may again argue why did the south didn’t industrialize pre-war. I would bet that has to do alot more to do with the poor transportation routes in the South. The Ohio River and associated rivers and Great Lakes are kick ass transportation routes. Not to mention the development of the Eric Canal, which in turn was possible due to the relatively low terrain in the middle of NY, which allowed goods in the Midwest to be shipped entirely within the US, avoiding Canada, is the #1 reason today why NY is a city of 20 million and not just another Philadelphia or Boston. Comparing that to the south, well, the Tennessee River sucks ass to navigate, and the Mississippi was way on the other side the south at that time, so it was hard to even get to it. The north had alot of advantages in these regards. Now the railroad would have been a great equalizer, but that was just starting to come into its own during Civil War times (for instance, the transcontinental railroad was finished during the Civil War, or right around there), and post war, again, the South economy was again strapped with rebuilding itself and repairing what few railroads existed, much less building new ones.

So I do disagree that the system was, for lack of a better word, “decided” by Southern decision makers, it would have been happened anyway prewar for there was no other option outside of some crazy outside interference. If fact, even without slavery, I don’t think anything really would have been different, just substitute African Americans with European Immigrants, which lets be honest, had to deal with near slave-like conditions in the northern states, who were enjoying cheap labor themselves. Was it better for the immigrant, probably, but not much.

So, while the North didn’t setup the South economic conditions prewar, I am not sure sure the Southern landowners deliberately did as well. Whatever one thinks about if the North “should have” is another discussion, but the North barely assisted with reconstruction effects, which is true, and that indifference to rebuilding the south really did hinder its economic growth of the south.

Lastly, concerning “If the Confederacy had succeeded in remaining outside the Union, I would put money on those states looking like Brazil now, economically speaking.” That’s a big reach, considering how much the Civil War depressed the economic growth and the development of the railroad in the south . If there was no war and with the increased investment in railroads, I would wager that the South today would be much more industrialized than Brazil. Probably less in population than the north, but the national income per person I bet would be somewhat close, if not similar to what it is today. There is lots of research on economic convergence by economists to explain that point. In fact (and please understand that I am not justifying slavery by no means), I would bet that by the late 1800s, northern business would have relocated or would have no longer been competitive by southern companies because of the cheaper labor costs. Which ironically probably would have caused another war.

Anyhoo, my 2 cents worth.

“Was it better for the immigrant, probably, but not much.”

@123, Sure, but “Mick” voted and eventually led. The biggest “indifference to rebuilding the south” was manifest in not caring to or being able to protect the 15th amendment. Whatever the root causes that “really did hinder its economic growth”. Corruption, exploitation, resources and economics to one side, inclusion beats the hell out of exclusion.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fifteenth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution

“On a per capita and absolute basis, more blacks were elected to political office during the period from 1865 to 1880 than at any other time in American history. Although no state elected a black governor during Reconstruction, a number of state legislatures were effectively under the control of a substantial African American caucus”

oc phil @ 112, not yet. I’m sure you’re right, but I am a very uptight northern European. I suspect that NOLA is about as untethered as I can cope with.

ben hill gryphon @ 119 – while others have and will in the future call me a damn commie, there’s nothing Marxist about the principle that money talks.

meatybob @ 123 – I take a number of your points, especially as they concern the effect of lower cost bulk transportation in the north directing northern economic development in a particular direction versus in the south. However, I’m not wholly convinced that you can exempt southern landowners from having a stake in their economy continuing as was: even a generation or three who didn’t start it had every reason to maintain as it was. If they profit from cotton and can get what they want via trade in cotton, there’s no compelling reason to industrialize. The local market isn’t that great, the north is ahead of you anyway, why not focus on getting more profit out of what you already do?

Now when it comes to reinvestment after the war, I completely agree that the capital wasn’t there to be invested in more than basic infrastructure, but it’s not like land ownership patterns had changed all that much, nor indeed control of what little capital there was. In other words, even if there had been more capital, I’m not sure I believe it would have been directed into economically and thus politically disruptive directions.

In the counterfactual alternative that I described, a Confederacy which had succeeded in seceding could have rebuilt and invested in rail quickly. International capital flows were pretty advanced in the mid to late 1860s and there’s no reason that they couldn’t have gained investment in rail to increase their transit capacity. But since the money for investment would be coming from the UK or other European country looking for raw materials, it would have been tied to the transport of those items. Again, if you’re a landowner or the Georgian equivalent of a Porteno, who cares if you industrialize? As long as the money is flowing. Besides, a working class is concentrated and chippy – they might even start trying to increase their wages! Unacceptable.

That doesn’t mean that slavery would necessarily have continued, though: primary sector goods – with the possible exception of oil – tend to decline in price over time, and while you can’t drive labor prices any lower than with slavery, you can mechanize. That would have been about the only outcome that could have – at least in material terms – sucked any more for slaves: to be cast loose with nowhere to go and nothing to do. Oh wait, that happened.

I guess I just don’t see an incentive to industrialize. You suggested that northern companies might have moved down for cheaper labor costs, and while that’s certainly true today, the northern states of the late 19th century were over-run with surplus / cheap labor because of mass immigration – they wouldn’t have had any need to look to the south absent an increase in labor costs, which would only have happened after the Civil War if the north had restricted immigration. And countries like Brazil that have tried to move from primary sector to manufacturing and services economies almost all did it because political power moved from landowners to urban populations who forced changes to programs like import substitution industrialization. That was a heady combination of socialist and mercantile thinking which – if the present is any hint – probably wouldn’t have taken root in the north.

But since this is all a counter-factual argument I could be completely full of it. Wouldn’t be the first time.