IS TOM LEMMING A NOTRE DAME SHILL IN 2008?
Tom Berenger wants his look back, dammit.Lorenzo Booker thought so in 2004, certainly, and given some of the people we’ve talked to about it–yes, anonymous sources, but good ones that we didn’t just make up on a caffeine bender through the aisles of Inserection posting from our iPhone–the suspicion is there.
The number one complaint about Lemming involves his selection process for the Army All-American Game, a process he’s heavily involved in as “the country’s leading expert on college football recruiting and high school talent.” (There’s an R. Kelly joke here about “high school talent,” but that would be in error since the area of specialty in question for him is “middle school talent.” Moving on…)
A look at the rosters certainly does look statistically anomalous: of the 84 players invited to the Army All-American fully 21 of them either listed Notre Dame as their destination school or as an interested school. 14 are outright commits, and another 7 put Notre Dame on the short list.
Is this any different than what you would see in a selection of the young and athletically gifted from around the rest of the country? In this sample, the answer is yes: the same roster only features six USC commits, one LSU commit, one Florida commit, and eight commits for Ohio State, who must be the other school deserving of bids in Lemming’s eyes. Notre Dame does have the second-ranked recruiting class in the country, true, but Florida’s at number one, followed by ND, Alabama, Georgia, and Florida State, all of whom send relatively nobody to the Army All-American Game.
Just on the basis of 2008’s class, Notre Dame commits are grossly overrepresented in the All-American’s roster. Now commits could just as easily go somewhere else, as the seven listed on the roster as “interested” might. But why the hell invite people who’ve already committed if you are, as some suspect, a total shill? To cave potentially interested commits during the Army All-American weekend is one possible motivator; another might be to keep the prestige of being a Notre Dame commit ( and thus pumping that helpful brand value up) and helping out the broadcaster of the game, NBC, who also happens to broadcast Notre Dame football.
There’s a synergy to it that doesn’t really find any reflection in Lemming’s rankings…or at least a clear reflection in this year’s rankings. Lemming does list three players in his top 100 that do not appear in the Rivals’ 100 (Blanton, Clelland, and Walker) and grossly overrates three players:
Dayne Crist: 10 Lemming, 25 Rivals.
Darius Fleming: 31 Lemming, 89 Rivals
Michael Floyd: 13 Lemming, 27 Rivals
OOOOOooooh you are so BURNED LEMMING!!! (Evil gleam, appearing in eye!) But then, foiling the best plans to nail his well-coiffed scalp to the wall, Lemming goes about even on Kyle Rudolph (19 Lemming, 20 Rivals) and actually goes lower than Rivals on Ethan Johnson (51 Lemming/32 Rivals) and Trevor Robinson (64 Lemming/37 Rivals). And he doesn’t even list Jonas Gray–though he did, somewhat tellingly, include him in the Army All-American game.
So the rankings, at least, are balanced. Where Lemming appears to be a shameless ND shill above and beyond all statistical means is in the Army All-American game, where he’s either just gonzo for Gold and Blue or bending to the will of NBC in an attempt to raise brand profile. Given that we believe no one does anything for any reason besides money–except our dear wife, of course, who knows this franchise is a money pit and doesn’t really seem to care–we’d rather say that Lemming isn’t a demonstrated shill for anyone but NBC and the brand they happen to co-own in a football sense, Notre Dame.









1
gerry dorsey says:
i. hate. recruiting rankings.
January 23rd, 2008 at 3:15 pm
2
Out of Conference says:
“who knows this franchise is a money pit and doesn’t really seem to care”
Wait – is it this franchise that doesn’t really seem to care, or TCOAN? This is a bet I’d hedge heavily on.
January 23rd, 2008 at 3:21 pm
3
Biggus Rickus says:
I thought Lemming was awesome in “The Substitute.”
January 23rd, 2008 at 3:28 pm
4
yak says:
Dana Jacobsen says “F&@$ To Lemming
January 23rd, 2008 at 3:28 pm
5
milferson85 says:
Urban Liar, pants on fire
January 23rd, 2008 at 3:29 pm
6
yak says:
*Tom
January 23rd, 2008 at 3:30 pm
7
THE Bruce Dickinson says:
It should also be pointed out that UF has received EIGHT recruits since the Army AA game, including 2 “5-stars”. They were nowhere near the top of the rankings at the time of the game, let alone in December when the rosters were being finalized.
January 23rd, 2008 at 3:33 pm
8
Reggie Bush's Impala says:
I love conspiracy theories.
January 23rd, 2008 at 3:36 pm
9
Coop says:
A couple of years ago, I was told by some people who work for Scout that Lemming was only going to be allowed to hand pick 3 guys for the Army game, and that would be it.
Thus, after the 3 mediocre ND guys, all other ND guys that were in the game were there on merit.
Now, Rivals has the game, and I wonder how that affects Lemming.
But as long as you have 2 national all-star games, the UA/ESPN game and the Army game, you are going to have a further dilution of “5 star” talent, as in who can offer the greater advantage to playing in which game.
Thus you will see more ND guys playing in all-star games than ever before, especially if Lemming gets more control of the Army game.
January 23rd, 2008 at 3:42 pm
10
Brian O'Blivion says:
Lemming
n. The act of following the crowd into an investment that will inevitably head for disaster.
Could there be a more perfect name for a Notre Dame shill?
January 23rd, 2008 at 3:43 pm
11
Coop says:
612% gains in 36 months?
That’s funny, I didn’t see you waiting around the corner with that sadistic gleeful look in your eye, Eliott Spitzer.
Jackass ruined all my fun 5 years ago.
January 23rd, 2008 at 3:54 pm
12
hunglikehussain says:
I just read the Warchat link that provides 3 instances of Lemming recruiting for Notre Dame. NCAA rules have nothing in place to prevent journalists (I use that term lightly) from influencing recruits.
I can understand that people not directly employed by a university can have as much contact as possible (alumni, employers, townfolk, etc.), but Lemming is making money off of their “stories”. Seems like a conflict to me. I know, I know, newspapers make money too, but they are not brazenly telling recruits where to go or risk losing some of your “stars”.
January 23rd, 2008 at 3:55 pm
13
MST3K says:
That so many people would decline invitations is improbable, but do we know who the all-star game ~invited~ as opposed to who participated (i.e., received and accepted and invitation)?
January 23rd, 2008 at 3:56 pm
14
Herb says:
#12, the NCAA could find that Lemming is acting as an agent of the university by pushing recruits to Notre Dame, and thus sanction ND for his having improper recruiting contact even with no explicit ties between ND and Lemming. IIRC, this happened with UK and a blog/website.
January 23rd, 2008 at 4:03 pm
15
Leeroy says:
What makes Rivals any better than Lemming? They list ND and UF both with 22 commits and ND has a higher average ranking, yet UF is #1 and ND is #2. This is probably the worst recruiting season to point to Lemming as being a ND shill. They have a legit #1 or #2 class by every service. Lemming is a fan of the almighty dollar, and being based in Chicago he knows who pays his bills. Rivals and Scout are no different.
January 23rd, 2008 at 4:12 pm
16
Brian says:
Does Phil Steele get to vote any players in? He aught to be slangin’ his piece around that.
January 23rd, 2008 at 4:13 pm
17
Coop says:
#12 – Basically what you are advocating would be to tier the two versions of journalists, the unbiased such as the guy who works for the AJC or the Charlotte Observer and the guy works for clemson.rivals.com or duke.scout.com.
Not everybody falls into such black and white categories, though.
And, what do you do about those who write for free, the bloggers?
I can come up with a hypothetical in about 5 seconds of a guy who attended Davidson, but is a huge Duke basketball fan.
This guy, who is worth $100MM, creates his own Duke blog, free to the world, does not allow for any advertising, does not charge subscription prices, etc, does everything, voluntarily.
He creates the massive following, everyone listens to him and reads him, but he will not capitalize on this venture, monetarily, whatsoever, and, oh yeah, he is in every recruit’s ear in the country talking about Duke.
Now, this guy would get unfettered access to every player in the nation, talking about his star rating system, etc, and how he will boost you up to sign for Duke, but since he is not profiting from this venture, again at least not monetarily, he is allowed to go free, but Tom Lemming has to be monitored.
Now, more realistically, what is the difference between the editor of clemson.rivals.com and the editor of the Greenville News?
Both write for compensation, both sell ad space, both have subscriber bases that want to read about Clemson athletics.
So, how do you decipher who is really unbiased and who is really biased, at least with out getting such a rule thrown out for being unconstitutional, against public policy, infringing on people’s rights to earn a living, take your pick as I am being redundant.
Bottom line, you do what the NCAA does and, as long as you not officially attached to a University, you have every right that any other journalist has to cover these guys…
which includes throwing your agenda in their face as much as possible with the most ridiculously leading questions known to man.
I am waving at you Chad Simons from Georgia.rivals.com.
Give me back AJ Harmon!&#($*#&#&#&!
January 23rd, 2008 at 4:13 pm
18
Coop says:
14 – Herb, it only happened because that UK writer was stupid enough to have been in the UK booster as recently as 2 years before such activities took place. Or, he was in the UK booster club, which sounds improbable.
As long as Lemming is not in some ND university affiliated group, club, etc, he is not an “official” agent of ND.
January 23rd, 2008 at 4:15 pm
19
Coop says:
15 – Oh and Leeroy makes a great point.
SMQ broke down the other day which schools have done the least with most, according to Rivals’ recruiting rankings, and most of them were in the SEC, Big 12, and ACC.
And, I would imagine that those below the Mason-Dixon line make up 75% of Rivals’ subscribers base.
Imagine that…
January 23rd, 2008 at 4:17 pm
20
UFGatorDMD says:
It’s as simple as ND on NBC = ND recruit love fest in AA game on NBC. Lemming is a $$$ whore.
January 23rd, 2008 at 4:20 pm
21
Papa Lou BSU says:
Writer Scott Eden had a very insightful profile piece on Lemming a few years back in the Chicago Reader…
It’s not archived on the Reader site, but it is ion Eden’s personal site. It’s loooooonnnng but worth a read, particularly the section on former Nebraska player Santino Panico, a guy whom Lemming trumped up well beyond his abilities, essentially setting the kid up for failure…
http://scotteden.net/stories_somedreamers.htm
January 23rd, 2008 at 4:21 pm
22
Biggus Rickus says:
Coop,
He also pointed out that the teams in the SEC who did the least with the most lost about 80% of their games to teams that were ranked about the same or above them, and that the rankings were generally pretty accurate for the top 30.
January 23rd, 2008 at 4:26 pm
23
ProfKid93 says:
Sigh – the Neck. I and I venture most ND fans find him just as creepy and self-aggrandizing as the rest of the country does. Unfortunately, he does seem to weld a lot of power in the recruiting world. He was off ND during Willingham’s latter two years, and that in addition to Willingham’s tee times may have contributed to the lackluster recruiting. Weis made peace with Lemming when he came to ND, and as long as Tom doesn’t do anything to threaten ND’s standing with the NCAA we’ll just have to live with the skeevy vibrations that emanate from him.
Oh, and time for Sr. Swindle’s periodic reminder that nothing ever dies on the interwebs:
http://www.everydayshouldbesaturday.com/2006/01/31/lemming-crooked-as-we-thought/
January 23rd, 2008 at 4:32 pm
24
Coop says:
Which is why statistics remain like loose women, BR.
But, when a squad like Georgia, goes 8-4, which I want to say they did in 2006, you can clarify that for me, and they are averaging top 7 recruiting classes the previous 4 seasons, again just speculating….
versus a BC team that averaged top 60 classes during that period and goes 8-4…
that really is all you can go on.
Sure, had BC played Georgia’ s schedule they would have “probably” finish up worse than 8-4, and vice versa, Georgia may have finished 10-2, but…
in other words, if you are going to attempt such an endeavor, conclusions will be drawn with what you have to work with, regardless of the possibilities for flawed conclusions due to inequalities in scheduling, etc.
January 23rd, 2008 at 4:33 pm
25
Lo-fi says:
Oddly, there was no such suspicion until Notre Dame actually started recruiting well again a few years ago.
These games can’t include the top 80 players in the country unless the top 80 players happen to constitute two perfectly balanced rosters by both position and the regions where the kids live. And Notre Dame is one of the few schools that does recruit nationally.
Also, of the three people whom are tremendously overrated by Lemming, according to Rivals, two stood out very positively in the All America game and the other was apparently kicking everybody’s asses until he became injured in practice earlier in the week.
Lastly, Scout has ND with the #1 class (Florida is #6) and has more of its rankings in line with Lemming’s, so maybe Rivals just has some different way of evaluating recruits. Regardless, this conspiracy theory is hardly an effective deflection of the attention being paid to [insert Urban Meyer's latest scumbag move].
January 23rd, 2008 at 4:34 pm
26
Edsall is God says:
Two things..
1) Lemming is actually hurting Notre Dame by inflating recruits standing, fooling the Irish into thinking they got a better class than they did.
2) Wouldn’t it be in NBC’s best interest, ratings-wise, to just put all the ND recruits in there anyway? Like it may be more their fault than Lemmings? We know ND = ratings (when they’re not 3-9). I’m surpised they just don’t have all the ND commits play and make it an intersquad scrimmage. ND = Money, don’t ever forget it.
I do dream of one day seeing a high school kid pick UConn over, say, Clemson.
January 23rd, 2008 at 4:37 pm
27
Marcus says:
For the 2005 AA game on NBC, Notre Dame had 1 player at the game. Where was Lemming and NBC then?
January 23rd, 2008 at 4:37 pm
28
Biggus Rickus says:
Coop,
I think that’s why he examined the numbers more deeply and posted the other table with the record vs. equal or better talent. The point is that they aren’t simply shills (though I’m certain that happens to some extent), and there is some correlation between recruiting and national rankings, with factors like injuries and coaching playing a large part.
January 23rd, 2008 at 4:41 pm
29
Matt says:
Notre Dame alumni and fans have known for years that Lemming loves the Irish cock. A lot of the high school recruiting experts have favorites. For example Jamie Newberg is a huge FSU supporter. But for the most part the recruiting rankings are accurate. USC, LSU, Florida, Texas, Georgia, and now Notre Dame have been killing recently in recruiting according to the recruiting rankings. All 5 of those teams will be competing for BCS bids in the near future.
January 23rd, 2008 at 4:46 pm
30
Lo-fi says:
Further, junior college transfers like Florida’s 5-star WR, Carl Moore, are not allowed to play in all-star games, while Notre Dame does not recruit junior college players.
January 23rd, 2008 at 4:52 pm
31
bnb614 says:
I don’t have the quote on me, it is at home, and I’ll try to post it later, but there is a media quote from another player at the All-American game who said the ND recruits were slow and didn’t deserve to be there.
January 23rd, 2008 at 4:54 pm
32
WorstFan says:
Brings whole new meaning to LEMMSDAY
January 23rd, 2008 at 4:55 pm
33
Coop says:
I agree that they are not complete shills, not disagreeing with you there, one bit.
The below will be a bit discombobulated, or alot, but I hope it makes some sense:
the nature of the beast, you have various factions of players, and I will leave out several.
The studs that coaches know about when they are sophomores in high school, played varsity as a freshman, etc, who are the 5 star guys. Those guys get offers as juniors from coaches who are not calling Jamie Newberg or whomever, asking for a list of who’s the shit.
But, there the recruiting folks are, ranking guys, and there is a reason that a Texas or Southern Cal or a Georgia or a LSU offers a kid as a junior. And, it does not matter where these guys are from. Everyone knows about them.
So, to have some objectivity, these guys are on top.
But, when you start looking at the 4 stars vs. 3 stars, then things get interesting.
It truly becomes a combination of factors with kids: what these recruiting people see at combines and on film, plus what schools are offering them.
Mack Brown is not calling the guy at Texas.rivals.com and asking him for his opinion on Player X. If anything, Rivals is getting wind that Texas, USC, and LSU are on a kid, thus he jumps from a 3 to a 4, almost automatically.
They have been sitting on this guy’s tape for a while, but all of sudden something changed, and it was when this guy went to all the summer football camps.
But, then the rankings become a self-fulfilling prophecy.
And, these schools, not coincidentally, along with Georgia, Alabama, and FSU, have the biggest subscriber sites on Rivals, along with South Carolina.
but, it becomes a chicken or the egg question at that point.
The other thing that gets me is the difference in positions.
Let’s say you can have your choice of Terrelle Pryor or Julio Jones, and you need help at both positions.
Who are you going to take?
Of course, Pryor, because he is the QB, who is much more integral to your team.
But, Rivals has these guys worth exactly the same, both have 6.1 ratings I believe, both are 5 stars, #1 at their positions, etc.
But, of course Pryor should be worth MUCH MORE in the rankings.
You can have Jones and a couple of 4 star players and I will take Pryor because, in theory, he is supposed to be that good.
Now, I hit on where kids are from a minute or go, too. Obviously the most talent is in the South, but Rivals and whomever do a woeful job covering Yankee recruiting, and that is often why these teams do, “less with more,” in addition to scheduling, weaker conferences, etc.
That is why you will always see BC in that sort of ranking, because Rivals does not do the due diligence on their recruits.
Anyway, there is just too much gray are to get too worked up over this stuff via a rankings perspective.
I don’t pay attention to stars so much as I pay attention to offers, in other words.
January 23rd, 2008 at 4:57 pm
34
The Knack says:
Lemming does favor ND. However, I wonder if second HS sports play a factor. I believe I read somewhere that you are ineligible for HS sports once you appear in anything similar to the AAA game.
Perhaps it isn’t automatic that kids will accept an invitation to the AAA game.
January 23rd, 2008 at 5:01 pm
35
Brian O'Blivion says:
This is a pretty good article on the Lemming / FSU / ND thing.
I really don’t care who’s the #1 recruiting class versus the #10 class – there’s probably not much difference. But for every Justin Trattou and Omar Hunter switch, an angel gets it’s wings. Yeah, I’m a hater. What?
January 23rd, 2008 at 5:03 pm
36
Domer Guy says:
#28 – oh, you mean like Michael Floyd?
“He caught 122 passes for 2,487 yards and 33 touchdowns as a junior and a senior. Floyd then produced a four-catch, 118-yard, two-touchdown performance in the Jan. 5 U.S. Army All-American Game in San Antonio. . . . ‘One question mark we had about him was speed: What did he look like when he was running against defensive backs from Florida and California and Texas? He proved all week [in San Antonio] that he has what it takes.”
http://www.chicagotribune.com/chi-22-irishfloydjan22,0,4568926.story
And let’s see who this “other player” is. Could it be that the “other player” didn’t get recruited by ND (for grades or any other reason), could it be that someone (like Urban or someone else) was in his ear, could it be the kid was told to say that? I’m not saying any of these are the reason(s), I’m just saying there are multiple explanations for what one HS kid spouted off about.
January 23rd, 2008 at 5:04 pm
37
Domer Guy says:
D’oh, I meant #31
January 23rd, 2008 at 5:05 pm
38
Chg says:
Coop, you tried to slip a trick questionin at #17.
Everybody knows there is no difference between the editor of clemson.rivals and the editor of the Greenville News.
January 23rd, 2008 at 5:17 pm
39
edsbsreader says:
incredibly insightful.
can we count on a story about landing on the moon tomorrow?
January 23rd, 2008 at 5:17 pm
40
Big Jon says:
In the interest of piling on Lemmingwinks and the peacock, Recruit Gerell Robinson was one of several that announced their committments over the airwaves after the Army AA game. I couldn’t find video, but when he puts on the Arizona State hat instead of the Notre Dame hat, the commentator did a double take a la the host of 21 in Quiz Show and announced something to the effect of “boy, that’s shocking!”
Well it’s not shocking, actually. ASU’s coach has two MNC rings (two more than corn dog Charlie) and Robinson was born and raised in Chandler, AZ, not more than a par 5 from the Tempe campus. I seem to remember reading an article last week regarding recruiting advantages for schools that are close to recruits. I think it was in The Economist.
January 23rd, 2008 at 5:23 pm
41
J.J. says:
How did Notre Dame survive without Tom Lemming for the first hundred years it played football? How did all those All-Americans and future NFL All-Pros and Hall of Famers land in South Bend before Lemming could shill for the Irish? Give me a fucking break all of you covetous johnny-come-latelies. Notre Dame was kicking ass coast-to-coast when your great grandpa was just a gleem in your great great grandpa’s eye. And they’ll be doing it a hundred years after we are all worm food. Hating on the Irish is a waste of time because Notre Dame is both historically relevant and permanently iconic.
January 23rd, 2008 at 5:43 pm
42
Rory says:
some things that should be noted is that ND doesn’t take JUCO’s. A lot of these other schools with high rankings have a handful of highly touted JUCO’s that increase their rankings. JUCO”s don’t play in these allstar games, only high school seniors, and ND only recruits high school kids, so naturally they may have more recruits in these games because all their commits are high school seniors.
Also geography should be noted here, these games like to balance the roster out by regions. So for example while a kid may not be highly touted nationally he may be one of the top players in his own state. Take Goodman, Cave, or Golic for example, none of those guys are highly touted nationally, but all are highly regarded in their states(Connecticut, Indiana). ND more so than any other school recruits nationally so that’s another reason why they may have more commits in these games.
January 23rd, 2008 at 6:07 pm
43
Brian O'Blivion says:
Hating on the Irish is a waste of time because Notre Dame is both historically relevant and permanently iconic.
But you and Domer fans like you make it so easy (and fun!).
I’ll always treasure that permanently iconic loss to Navy this past year. I wonder what their recruiting classes were ranked.
January 23rd, 2008 at 6:20 pm
44
Brad says:
Way to go and write an anti-ND article to get a big response. Way to be different EDSBS
January 23rd, 2008 at 6:44 pm
45
skinnyphatman says:
JJ,
you may be right, but that is one hell of a drought if we are anticipatinng that they will be kicking ass again 100 years after I am gone… I plan to stick around for a few more years, so adding that to 100 gives us a pretty good rebuilding time. Question though, how are they going to lock up CW for that long? Sign a multi-decade (if not century) contract with the Weis bloodline. Similar to the English royalty… The paparatzi will be so very happy!
During that rebuilding time, how many seasons will the irish be “good” enough to garner a BCS bid, only to be ass raped by a BCS conference team lucky enough to play them?
January 23rd, 2008 at 6:46 pm
46
hunglikehussain says:
@17
Coop, Sorry for the delay, sometimes it takes time and alcohol to ‘Wrap my mind” around things.
Regarding your theoretical scenario concerning recruitment for Duke/UGA, let me first define, per the NCAA, agents and recruitment.
For reference: http://www.ncaa.org/library/membership/division_i_manual/2007-08/2007-08_d1_manual.pdf
In layman’s terms an agent is defined as anyone that has a financial stake in a school. Booster club or even season ticket holder. See 6.4.2 and 13.02.13.
Recruitment (again in layman’s terms) is actively influencing a prospect to attend a school. See 13.02.12
From what I gather or question and answer time department:
Can an alumnus contact a recruit? Yes, if he has no fiduciary interest in said institution. All he wants.
Can a booster club member employ a recruit? Yes, as long as the pay is usual and not a vehicle of recruitment.
Can an alumnus or agent post favorably the attributes of one institution vs. another (i.e. Duke/UGA examples)? Hell yeah motherfucker, last time I looked it was still a free country!
Can an alumnus or agent meet face-to-face with a recruit and attempt to directly influence his decision? No.
Is Lemming an agent as defined by 13.02.13? I don’t know.
Is Lemming a douchebag either by promoting Notre Dame or dissing FSU/Washington/USC If an18 year old “potential phenom” is to be believed…Yes.
Ergo, ipso facto, presto chango!
January 23rd, 2008 at 7:01 pm
47
Biggus Rickus says:
Coop,
That’s actually a good way to look at it for the most part. Occasionally you’ll find a guy like Tim Jennings or Thomas Davis, 2-star guys who Georgia had to beat out middling programs for and are now in the NFL, but mostly, if a bunch of big name programs are going after a guy, he’s going to be at least a contributer barring injury.
January 23rd, 2008 at 7:30 pm
48
The Man says:
What about this statement that you typed on your last Lemming-rant:
“And finally: we’ll never type this many words about Tom Lemming again.”
You liar! You must like Urban Meyer. Hey, that rhymed!
Come off it – Regional recruiters all have their favorite schools, and ND recruits get dinged in Stars and such as soon as they committ because of all the ND Haterage. Is Lemming biased? Probably. But not any moreso than the other ‘gurus’. In the end, it all balances out -as your own numbers show (and if you used Scout instead of Rivals, it would totally refute your theory – convenient, no?)
January 23rd, 2008 at 7:41 pm
49
Orson Swindle says:
I am shocked–SHOCKED!!!–at this slanderous attack against Notre Dame which at no point says anything bad about Notre Dame!
January 23rd, 2008 at 7:53 pm
50
bnb614 says:
I don’t have the quote on me, it is at home, and I’ll try to post it later, but there is a media quote from another player at the All-American game who said the ND recruits were slow and didn’t deserve to be there.
Then Golden Domer said:
And let’s see who this “other player” is. Could it be that the “other player” didn’t get recruited by ND (for grades or any other reason), could it be that someone (like Urban or someone else) was in his ear, could it be the kid was told to say that? I’m not saying any of these are the reason(s), I’m just saying there are multiple explanations for what one HS kid spouted off about.
You are right, there could be many explanations. But based on your highly touted class last year and your 3-11 record, my guess is Tom chugs Domer cock and inflates the impression of ND recruits.
From BuckNuts.com:
“From the mouth of babes…I combine two passions in one sentiment here. I love recruiting and the super recruits that are on their way to Columbus. And I hate Notre Dame and the media fawning over a ship that has sailed. So, it was with both interest and glee that I noted in our interview of Mike Brewster last week, that he commented on the talent at the Army All Star game (a game produced and promoted by that hopeless and hapless Notre Dame shill, Tom Lemming): Mike said, “The Notre Dame guys – 90% shouldn’t have been at the game”. ”
Hating on the Irish is a waste of time because Notre Dame is both historically relevant and permanently iconic.
Historically relevant! That is awesome. How about letting us know when you become “currently relevant,” maybe in the next 10 years? Win a bowl game, beat a ranked team, something of effort.
What are the odds Charlie is still the coach when ND has their next winning season?
Brian O’B is right, it is fun hating on ND.
January 23rd, 2008 at 8:01 pm
51
bnb614 says:
“Other teams are going to have to learn about Notre Dame, OK? Let them try to stop a pro-style offense, which has multiple personnel groups and multiple formations. Let’s see how they are going to do. They’ve had their advantage because I’ve come into recruiting late. Well, now it’s Xs and Os time. Let’s
see who has the advantage now.”-Charlie Weis
January 23rd, 2008 at 8:02 pm
52
sb says:
#41…hubris is a wonderful thing…nd relevant since when? When I was in grade-school when they won their last bowl game? The nd legacy and legends are from a world when the rust belt held the majority of the population and at least the majority of that majority only hoped their children could go to college and the ideal would have been (for the catholics) nd, the non-catholics, OSU and UM. Since all those folks or their surviving children now live in the sun belt, nd’s significance (and the rest of the big Televen) is based on the film Rudy and the minds of those stuck in a legacy formed prior to the mid-’60’s. Wake up…even scUM has won five natty champs since nd’s last (I think), and even those guys are has-beens. History is a wonderful thing to read about, but if you’re not makin’ it in this day and age, you’re losin’…just sayin’.
And to think that escaped without any profanity…
January 23rd, 2008 at 8:14 pm
53
KT says:
Is Tom Lemming a shill for Notre Dame? Kind of a tough question like whether or not the founder and owner of Rivals.com is a Bama shill. (How you like all them #1 ranked classes, Bama fans? Arn’t you pissed when you realize you have been had?)
http://alabama.rivals.com/rfFan.asp?User=64
January 23rd, 2008 at 8:15 pm
54
hunglikehussain says:
Perpetuation my friend, perpetuation.
Is a web site influential?
Can an investigation result from the rantings of immature, iconoclastic minions?
Yes, I say to those that have not reached the insight and knowledge of protestantism.
We spit at your feeble “insurrection”.
How ’bout them DAWGS!
January 23rd, 2008 at 8:26 pm
55
hunglikehussain says:
“inquisition”
Dammit, I drink like an Irishman.
January 23rd, 2008 at 8:57 pm
56
Coop says:
H Like Hussain,
I was not asking for your opinion, advice, etc.
I knew the answer before I posed the hypothetical to you.
Stop huffing paint, big man.
January 23rd, 2008 at 9:32 pm
57
DBCooper1996 says:
I believe Ohio State commit Michael Brewster made the comment that what he saw of the ND recruits was less than deserving. Specifically that many had no business being ranked that high period. Since Brewster really has nothing to gain by saying that…I also think they are suspect. Did any of them even play well?
January 23rd, 2008 at 10:54 pm
58
hunglikehussain says:
@55
Coop, I didn’t mean to flame. However, when it concerns Notre Dame, I don’t think most fans understand the intrinsic unfairness that this institution has imposed on college football.
Enlighten me on the following issues:
Why is Notre Dame “automatically” an invite to a BCS bowl if they have at least 9 wins?
Why are they guaranteed 1 million per year, from the BCS, regardless of where they end up in the polls. 3-9 automatic!
1 million/year is chicken feed compared to the exclusive NBC contract. Right?
The Big televen needs one more member to qualify for a championship game. Notre Dame is a natural fit. Because of your obstinance and arrogance, you have effectively paved the way for a team like tOSU to back in and get embarrassed in the national title game. 2x. tOsu did not belong there. No one from the Big televen belonged there. Although my allegiances are with UGA, Oklahoma or Virginia Tech (based on conference championships) would have been a more logical fit. I know, both sucked in their respective bowls, but so did tOSU.
Anxiously awaiting your reply….HLH
January 23rd, 2008 at 11:19 pm
59
Matt says:
I really love southern people. They are just so gosh darn bright!
January 23rd, 2008 at 11:28 pm
60
Mr Pelican Pants says:
Notre Dame…..Their demise is almost as fun to watch as tOSU ascent and yearly crash and burn in the MNC game…..LSU demolished ND in their last bowl game and the wheels fell off……The question remains will Jimmy Clausen survive long enough to win any awards, much less the Heisman? Will ND beat Navy next year? Lemming is getting paid to blow smoke for ND, point blank….Not a big deal since every school has at least on Lemming, except he happens to be connected to a college that practically owns its own TV network via NBC….which in turn means we get to see ND fail alot more, more often….my money is that ND doesnt break .500 next year, and I think they are at least 3 yrs from a bowl game and 5 yrs from a MNC appearance, and thats if they can string together 3 top 5 recruiting classes……The bright side is by that time most of the SEC will still be intact and the road to win the MNC will have to go thru GA, FLA, LSU, AU, Alabama, and maybe even ARK or OLE MISS if they can recruit, which they can BTW….
January 23rd, 2008 at 11:50 pm
61
Azores says:
Response:
1. Why is Notre Dame ?automatically? an invite to a BCS bowl if they have at least 9 wins?
-Notre Dame isn’t. In fact, the Irish went 10-2 in 2002 and were shut out of the BCS. Notre Dame gets an automatic bid if it finishes in the top-6 of the BCS, which means it (as an independent) was ranked higher than at least one BCS conference champion.
2. Why are they guaranteed 1 million per year, from the BCS, regardless of where they end up in the polls. 3-9 automatic!
-Because other schools didn’t like the old system, where ND got nothing if it didn’t go and the full pot if it did. Now, Notre Dame is like conference schools, which get automatic allocations from their conferences each year and about $4.5 million of the total payout when they go. After ND got $28 million to keep for itself in 2005-06, the conferences were happy to hedge their bets.
3. 1 million/year is chicken feed compared to the exclusive NBC contract. Right?
-Yes.
4. The Big televen needs one more member to qualify for a championship game. Notre Dame is a natural fit. Because of your obstinance and arrogance, you have effectively paved the way for a team like tOSU to back in and get embarrassed in the national title game. 2x. tOsu did not belong there. No one from the Big televen belonged there. Although my allegiances are with UGA, Oklahoma or Virginia Tech (based on conference championships) would have been a more logical fit. I know, both sucked in their respective bowls, but so did tOSU.
-The Big Ten tried to cripple Notre Dame for about 50 years by refusing Notre Dame admission and blacklisting it from member schedules. The reason was anti-Catholic prejudice. Why would Notre Dame join the conference that tried to kill it?
January 24th, 2008 at 12:07 am
62
ferndag bezinbrig says:
Lemming is taking pity on these kids and giving them their only opportunity to play (and possibly even win) in the post-season. Once they get to ND, they’ll never experience the thrill of a bowl win.
January 24th, 2008 at 1:48 am
63
Biggus Rickus says:
I would like to thank Notre Dame fans for never allowing me to feel pity for Notre Dame during this past season. It would have been far less fun if you’d shown some good-humored humility in going 3-9.
January 24th, 2008 at 8:41 am
64
Cock D says:
@61
If by “Anti-Catholic Bias” you mean “ND used players whose academic standing was questionable/non-existent” then yes, sure bias.
I’m sure there were no Catholic kids on 10 other teams from the upper-midwest…. likely.
January 24th, 2008 at 8:55 am
65
okiedomer says:
#64
i’m not going to deny that ND has had some players with questionable academic standing, b/c we have (especially under Holtz) – but that has nothing to do with what #61 was saying re: historical anti-Catholic bias in the big 10 – fact is, the big 10, especially Michigan, had some higher ups way back when who were anti-Catholic and thus anti-ND – this is a matter of historical fact – and as we all know, with a school like ND which clings so dearly to their history, the historical slights of 70+ years ago are still remembered and resented
i’m a grad school domer, and ND is and always will be second to Oklahoma with me, so i can better understand and accept folks who don’t like ND than your average rabid domer, but don’t let your ND hate get in the way of historical fact – other than that, hate away
…of course, if you ever say anything about Paul Thompson, i’ll hunt you down…
January 24th, 2008 at 9:44 am
66
bnb614 says:
The Big televen needs one more member to qualify for a championship game. Notre Dame is a natural fit. Because of your obstinance and arrogance, you have effectively paved the way for a team like tOSU to back in and get embarrassed in the national title game. 2x. tOsu did not belong there.
So Notre Dame going 3-9 last season or whatever, paved the way for OSU to get to the title game, even though the two teams never played?
Interesting leap there.
January 24th, 2008 at 10:46 am
67
Coop says:
#58
My post had nothing to do with Notre Dame, per se. My point was that all “journalists” have to fall under the same catch all group, and as long as they are not connected to the University through any official channels, they should have unfettered access to players, unlike, say, me when I win the Powerball.
No, I hate Notre Dame, too, it is just that we can’t police Lemming without throwing the baby out with the bath water.
Kudos on your reply, though, as all of the rest of your points make sense.
January 24th, 2008 at 11:38 am
68
Hal says:
Lemming’s a shill! The bowl selection system is compromised by the big money involved in the process!
Also, birds have wings and cars have wheels.
And to those posters insinuating there’s something evil about ND’s NBC contract, answer me this: Please point me to a single school that would refuse such an arrangement if it could indeed secure it. Indeed, most major football conferences are trying to accomplish the next best thing, by founding conference-affiliated TV networks.
Among the evils in college football, I can think of a lot of bigger problems than the share of the financial pie ND receives.
Let’s try starting with the graduation rates of black athletes. Anyone like to talk about that one?
January 24th, 2008 at 2:43 pm
69
Biggus Rickus says:
I’m guessing that black athletes graduate at a higher rate than their counterparts in the general student population seeing that as of 2003 athletes in general graduated at a higher rate than the general student population.
January 24th, 2008 at 3:06 pm
70
hunglikehussain says:
#69
Yes, thank God for the schools of sociology and general studies.
You ever cringe when major’s are posted?
What did they call Home Ec….Domestic Engineering?
You would think that a lot of athletes would be sport and recreation majors. Anatomy and Physiology just wipes them out.
January 24th, 2008 at 3:45 pm
71
Hal says:
Biggus Rickus,
Do you have any data to back that statement — that football players graduate at a higher rate than the general population of their schools? (I’m not baiting here; I just find that runs counter to anything I’ve heread before..)
As you can see from this link (http://chronicle.com/stats/ncaa/), over half of black football players failed to graduate from college in ‘98 & ‘99, versus onlyn 38% for white players. That’s pretty dismal no matter how you slice it.
January 25th, 2008 at 2:39 pm