ULM TO LOSE COACH IN WIDESPREAD SALARY ADJUSTMENT
University of Louisiana-Monroe coach Charlie Weatherbie is celebrating for a few reasons. Sure, he's got reason to pop the bubbly because his team beat the Alabama Crimson Tide 21-14 on Saturday. But Weatherbie has 4 million other reasons to celebrate--namely, that he's going to be paid a salary commensurate to his record after beating the 4 million dollar man himself, Nick Saban.
Give the man a monkey. And his 4 million dollars. "According to the win, I'm undervalued by 97 percent of what I should be paid," said Weatherbie, who earns a mere $130,000 as the coach of the Warhawks. "I'm looking forward to being paid what I'm truly owed and living out one of my lifelong dreams: buying a monkey, and then training it to smoke and drink beer."
ULM had no formal statement in response to Weatherbie's demands, but off-the-record sources were quoted as saying that "there was no fucking way" they could pay Weatherbie's new salary, citing the fact that "paying almost one-tenth of our total budget to a 5-6 football coach would be completely fucking insane."
Weatherbie, though, is confident something could be worked out. "Perhaps they could sell some land or something. I don't know. Have a bake sale. Charlie wants his monkey, and it's time to give him some bananas for all his hard work. Tell the sob stories to my agent, pencilnecks. Bananas, motherfuckers."
Weatherbie's not the only one making cash from the hash of the Crimson Tide's loss.
With Saban's wage skewing all coaching salaries, agents are rushing to the gates to demand audiences with ADs across the nation.
"It's criminal that with six wins and a likely defeat in the Iron Bowl to come, my client is skimping along on $1.5 million dollars a year," said Kyle Torvald, agent for Kansas coach Mark Mangino. "At the very least, the going rate for a win on a mere 4 million dollars a year as Alabama's paying would take Mark Mangino up to $8 million a year, enough to pay for the pangolin flesh and whole pickled beluga whales that fuel his championship gameplanning."
Torvald paused, and looked pointedly at the back of the room where Kansas AD Lew Perkins stood. He then said, "And if Kansas doesn't want to put quality lye-infused whalemeat on Mark Mangino's bloodstained sideboard of victory, we're sure someone else will."
The inflationary effect still "pales in comparison to what most CEOs make," says economist Kevin Bridesworthy of the Brookings Institute, "but it's catching up."
"Soon we'll see coaches begin to make demands they previously couldn't dream of: sedan chairs, private brothels, payment in bricks of platinum, stacks of euros, private jets, you name it. They're gonna have it," says Bridesworthy, who also pointed out that Saban, building on his own contract's record-setting salary, could reasonably expect to renegotiate his own contract in the coming months to reach a $10-12 million dollar level on salary based on the overall increase.
The other form could even include custom luxury goods in the form of dedicated staff to manage the whims and likes of coaches. Les Miles' pending contract at Michigan includes an office stocked with its own private taffy-making machine and taffymakers on staff. When asked about the deal, Miles had no comment besides, "Mmmm, taffy."
Weatherbie's agent, Jimmy Sexton, is giddy with anticipation. "Certainly, the Saban deal establishes a level more in line with a coach's actual value to an organization. But it's really just a start. My client clearly is just as capable of going 6-6 as someone making 4 million dollars a year; why not reward him thusly?" asks Sexton, who also represents Nick Saban and negotiated the original $4 million dollar deal with Alabama.
And while the salary race is set to begin, Weatherbie's already living the dream.
"I really don't care where they get the money. I just want that monkey. He's gonna be funny as shit, right? Beer in his hand, cigarette in the other. Maybe I'll teach him to get me beer out of the fridge, or even blow the whistle during practice. Man, this is...this is just gonna be awesome."
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Do the math – $4MM divided by 6 wins is $666,666 per win. The number of the devil. Coincidence? I think not.
by yoyofutbawl on Nov 19, 2007 11:36 AM EST reply actions
That is some golden shit right there Orson…you are the best.
by The Artist Formerly Known as tOSUBuckeyes on Nov 19, 2007 11:39 AM EST reply actions
The phrase “Bama Is Back” no longer means back to respectability, but back as college football’s punch line.
by tincup on Nov 19, 2007 11:42 AM EST reply actions
i realize that this is a long overdue question, but where in the hell did the Les Miles = taffy lover thing come from? Is ther factual basis or just another beautiful angel plucked from the ADD maelstrom in Orson’s head?
good stuff though
by jon on Nov 19, 2007 11:42 AM EST reply actions
This is the post that launched a thousand comments. Move over what I hate about ESPN, here come UL-Monroe.
by Crabapple Buck on Nov 19, 2007 11:43 AM EST reply actions
No motherfucker, we agreed to $1.5 million— ten dollars a pound.
-Kansas AD to Mangino’s agent
by PW on Nov 19, 2007 11:43 AM EST reply actions
I wish they’d fire that monkey that Shula left and has now attached himself to Sabans back, and when he is not on Sabans back, he’s pretending to be an Offensive Coodinator…
John Parker Wilson went in for a CT scan,and what the doctors saw confirmed Sabans fears…..
When they examined his head, all they could see was a video of a kitten chasing butterflies, on an endless loop…..absolutely nothing to do with football…but yet he is entrusted to run an offense in Cripple Fight 2007, what is Auburn-Tech vs Alabama JuCo, which is sure to be the turnover king of them alllllll. I say let our defense play offense and put our best return guys at corner since both QB’s are consistent in PICK 6’s..
by Mr Pelican Pants on Nov 19, 2007 11:43 AM EST reply actions
Saban’s got a monkey resting right on his shoulder that remarkably resembles a former coach. Is it too late to ask for a refund?
I see Tubbs hanging 50 on us before he bolts. I’m in the Mao club now.
by Bama93 on Nov 19, 2007 11:44 AM EST reply actions
As if losing to a Sun Belt Conference team even phases is the modern Bama fan.
In the past ten years we’ve lost to a team from pretty much every conference I can think of, Big 12, Big 10, Big East, Pac 10, Conference USA, and more. What conferences are Central Florida and Northern Illinois in?
Either way, we’re hitting rock bottom, but Saban lost to UAB in his first year at LSU and still did aight.
The fact of the matter is, we beat Tennessee this year, and that is more than I expected under another year of Shula, who I’m sure you can all point out might have ended up with the same record. Shula, however, would not have our recruiting class ranked near the top of the SEC/nation.
Take your shots. There’s nothing we can say, but I guarantee we’re not as worried as we were this time last year.
by bama_buck on Nov 19, 2007 11:46 AM EST reply actions
Must have been the SEC speed that Alabama had that caused them to hit rock bottom and continue to dig so fast.
by Crabapple Buck on Nov 19, 2007 11:50 AM EST reply actions
The LSU loss to UAB was very early in the season, and they bounced right back. ULM was the 11th game of the season. Also, UAB was actually good that year, ULM is TERRIBLE…they are the only team to lose to North Texas.
Saban blaming Shula and Shula’s players is almost as lame as him allowing DJ Hall back on the field after suspending him.
Perhaps Nick Saban’s style/personality doesn’t work anymore.
by The Artist Formerly Known as tOSUBuckeyes on Nov 19, 2007 11:51 AM EST reply actions
Who is Alabama’s quarterback coach? Seriously. As much as Alabama fans don’t want to admit it, but Shula was/is a pretty good quarterback coach. He seems to be doing very well at Jacksonville.
Saban has no assistants.
by The Artist Formerly Known as tOSUBuckeyes on Nov 19, 2007 11:55 AM EST reply actions
Mike Shula would have won that game. Coach Fran hung 53 points on the Warhawks.
Bama fans wake up – “the emperor has no clothes”.
by crabs on Nov 19, 2007 11:56 AM EST reply actions
Yep, Shula is in Jax where David Garrard still hasn’t thrown an INT all year.
by LL on Nov 19, 2007 11:59 AM EST reply actions
I want a drinking monkey!!!!
I actually saw a license plate in birmingham that said SABANUS
I guess that aint it this year. Geaux Tigers.
by Harleyman on Nov 19, 2007 11:59 AM EST reply actions
A need a large blow-up of the beer-swilling monkey with man tits for my cube.
Yeah, I work in a cube. God, life is depressing. Mickelson Monkey would make me smile.
by D-nice on Nov 19, 2007 12:00 PM EST reply actions
I want to know how Alabama fans can claim Shula is responsible for the player’s lack of discipline and toughness when Saban allows suspensions to run for whatever amount of time is convinient? Certainly doesn’t improve discipline…
Can a man with $32 MM guaranteed with no buyout be under that much pressure to win right away?
by Stephen on Nov 19, 2007 12:00 PM EST reply actions
“pickled beluga whales”
fucking awesome
What nothing on the DJ Hall “will not play today” suspension that became a 1st half suspension when the Tahd was losing to the warhawks? Orson, your slipping on that one.
by TIGERinATL on Nov 19, 2007 12:09 PM EST reply actions
If Pangolin really is good for breast-feeding, that explains about 2.5% of the mass of Mangino’s moobs.
by DC Trojan on Nov 19, 2007 12:12 PM EST reply actions
12 & 14 – Most excellent SEC Speed™ reference!!
by tOSU_radar on Nov 19, 2007 12:12 PM EST reply actions
Some Alabama fan will undoubtedly be along shortly to remind us about how awesome their upcoming recruiting class will be. Does anyone know where I can find historical recruiting class rankings for the past 10 or so years? I’d like to see how well they correlate with actual on-field success.
Here are a few former notable QB recruits off the top of my head:
Tebow (living up to hype)
Leak (good, but not great)
Rix (beat UF a couple times, but a bust overall)
Kendra (wound up at fullback)
X Lee (bust)
by PW on Nov 19, 2007 12:14 PM EST reply actions
“Shula’s players” beat ULM 41-7 last year.
Lord, this is funny.
by Gurn on Nov 19, 2007 12:19 PM EST reply actions
“Mr. Teeny needs a refill of his nicotine gum.”
http://photos2.meetupstatic.com/photos/member/8/8/0/6/member_1054822.jpeg
by Brian on Nov 19, 2007 12:19 PM EST reply actions
One-tenth of ULM’s total budget?
How about MORE THAN HALF.
http://www.bbstate.com/info.php?a=schools-budget
(The Warhawks are at 256th overall, which would be DEAD LAST among Div. 1-A schools.)
by TechDawg86 on Nov 19, 2007 12:21 PM EST reply actions
“I want a Goddamned chimp that smokes cigs and shoots tequila! STAT!”
http://content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en/4/48/Weatherbee.gif
by Brian on Nov 19, 2007 12:25 PM EST reply actions
Any word if Charlie Weis got a raise for beating Duke and starting the Heisman campaign of Mr. Jimmy Clausen?
by Proof Speaker on Nov 19, 2007 12:32 PM EST reply actions
Shula beat ULM 41-7 last year.
Seriously, you gumps aren’t worried that the losing will cause some of those verbal commitments may stark looking elsewhere?
by Unhappy Monkey on Nov 19, 2007 12:35 PM EST reply actions
saban deserves 4 mill with his two ten win seasons
by AUhippie on Nov 19, 2007 12:35 PM EST reply actions
I plan to hopefully become a football coach at the college level. I wouldn’t guffaw at 1.5 million at all. Maybe I should become saban’s coordinator lol. I love EDSBS!
by geHeismans on Nov 19, 2007 12:36 PM EST reply actions
[comment redacted until after the Iron Bowl]
War Damn Eagle!
by James on Nov 19, 2007 12:43 PM EST reply actions
“lye infused whalemeat”
Hope my mom doesn’t mind making an addition to the Thanksgiving spread. Off to spear me a whale…stop running Charlie!
by Jorts4Lyfe on Nov 19, 2007 12:46 PM EST reply actions
ND Monkey Bidniss:
#30: Proof Speaker: If Charlie gets a monkey as a reward for beating Duke, Charlie would eat it by the end of the second quarter.
by Stacy Keibler Luvs Me on Nov 19, 2007 12:53 PM EST reply actions
Everyone can laugh now, and they may get to continue to laugh, only time will tell.
Saban did in fact lose to UAB and then beat #11 Tennessee the next week in his first season at LSU. Probably means nothing now.
However, his salary is only $3.5M, not $4M, so it’s only $583,333 per game. So NAH!
by PeterPumpkinhead on Nov 19, 2007 12:54 PM EST reply actions
What you guys dont see is the internal in-fighting that has been going on since last year.
I have a relative that works in the Alabama Athletic dept that relayed to me what Saban told his players and coaches:
“Half of you have bought in to the way I wanna do things, Half of you have not, players and Coaches.
And I assure you, the half that hasnt bought in, WILL NOT be here next year, players and Coaches.”
The way I read that is…Off. Coodinator, Def Coordinator, QB coach….MAO! Transfer or sit out next year…..he will start a true freshman over a 2 or 3 yr loser w/ a bad attitude…..
Basically, you had the inmates running the prison…no one respected Shula, on or off the team. Now Saban comes in “Full Metal Jacket” Gunny Hartman style, benches 2 yr starters that half ass practice,(who are actually good game day players) and basically, for good or bad, sticks to his guns about not letting them play, no matter how “great” they were PNS-Pre Nick Saban….and no doubt about it,Keith Brown was a good receiver and Jimmy Johns was a good running back with alot of potential and couldnt take the style of Saban and has been in the dog house since Aug 1st that players refer to as the “Pants hanging off your ass” Incident where he came in all thugged out, pants down around his ass and Saban , basically berating him and calling him out, probaly embarrassed him to no end, in front of the team….
Then you throw in the mix a QB that cant read defenses or avoid sacks, but can throw the prettiest meatball for pick-6’s, or who stares down the receivers, then throws the ball to them while the corner jumps the route,or routinely overthrows wide open receivers or throws an INT on a shuffle pass——-who the fuck does that??Now the players dont have confidence in their “leader” QB, who has brought it on himself….. Basically you had the players not used to being Micro-managed and nit picked about every play, and its safe to say several of them probaly laid down, hell it looked like they threw the game, but everyone knows Sabans method of operation-lay one egg a year….plus the fact DJ Hall should be All SEC by now, but since the QB cannot seem to throw a decent pass every 2 games, will probaly cost DJ draft position and money, and you know DJ is frustrated since he seems to get open even in double coverage when he zooms past them….
We have to win in spite of JPW, and thats hard to do when he is all we have to go with, plus the geniuses at Alabama deciding mid-season to suspend 5 key starters, that was the straw that broke the thin camels back, I dont care if your LSU, you suspend 5 starters off any good, much less mediocre SEC team, hell any team….it will affect your production, tailback,the right half of the O line, shuts down your running game which shuts down your passing game, which has shut itself down anyway, so basically your 3 and out when your not throwing INT’s and spotting the other team 14 points a game… now all you have to is make JPW beat you, and that makes opposing Def Coordinators smile since he will beat himself, you just have to your walkon QB at practice just throw the ball blindly into triple coverage or have him stand still and hold the ball til he gets sacked……
Let Georgia play LSU or Florida again without their starting Tailback(Moreno) and the right side of the O line, and see how far Georgia gets when they are forced to pass, then spot LSU/Florida 14 points off of INTs, not early in the game, but when the game is on the line….then see how that game turns out…That my friends is what Alabama Football 2007 is all about..
There is 2 teams this year….Sabans Squad that piles it on Tennessee, or the Shula Flashback Squad that quits that would have beat LM and lost to Tenn….
This team has no talent…no one is going pro but one person and to win in this league and even on a National scale you will need to have players that will eventually be playing on Sunday…..we dont seem to have any
by Mr Pelican Pants on Nov 19, 2007 12:56 PM EST reply actions
#18
In Sweden, that same license plate reads: SAB ANUS
by DirkDawggler on Nov 19, 2007 12:58 PM EST reply actions
15
QB coach? It’s Michael Henig. We haven’t seen him in Starksville in quite some time. He and JPW are the perfect fit. Look how well he coached him on the last play of the 1st half, led our DB perfectly.
by yoyofutbawl on Nov 19, 2007 1:04 PM EST reply actions
Does Mangino know that the pictured monkey stole his moobs and if so, does that take his shirt size down to XXXXXXXL?
by Touchdown74 on Nov 19, 2007 1:06 PM EST reply actions
#38, the new proud tradition of Alabama. Excuses.
Buck up son.
by Wippuh on Nov 19, 2007 1:07 PM EST reply actions
#42
Nah, its fact…..I know most of you havent had to suffer thru a brainless QB instead of wasting a redshirt for 2 games….its a fate worse than death….
When we reflect on this season, we will point to #14 and say, thanks for the memories….its all on you purdy boy…..now go play intramurals
by Mr Pelican Pants on Nov 19, 2007 1:15 PM EST reply actions
I think Saban is kind of in the same position that Meyer was in when he started, just with less talented players. Meyer got a lot of resistance from [name redacted]’s players and he had to weed a bunch of them out — which is why our team is so young this year. But Meyer at least benefited from the remaining players being talented, because at least [name redacted] could recruit.
Saban’s a good coach, but it’s going to take him longer to make an impact at Bama than it did Meyer. If he stays 4 years, watch out. That’s a big IF though.
by baconboy on Nov 19, 2007 1:18 PM EST reply actions
“Now Saban comes in ?Full Metal Jacket? Gunny Hartman style…”
You know, it’s been a while…but I don’t remember things working out too well for Gunny Hartman in that movie…
by spartymike on Nov 19, 2007 1:18 PM EST reply actions
44 – Ha ha! Florida – “weed” players out. Good one!
by tOSU_radar on Nov 19, 2007 1:28 PM EST reply actions
If it were me, I would fucking ban QB’s from wearing the #14 at Alabama.
Fucking JPW, Tyler Watts (what a fucking Abortion he was), Brian Burgdorf (isn’t he still in prison?), and the list goes on….
by Steve on Nov 19, 2007 1:31 PM EST reply actions
Yeh I could see Saban vs Jimmy Johns type showdown, or better yet, a
“Officer and a Gentlemen” type thing goin with Saban Vs JPW, Saban’s got JPW doin push ups and Sabans got the cold water hose sprayin all in his face, screaming " I WANT YOUR DOR… MAYO NAISE!!!" and JPW screaming back…“I GOT NO PLACE TO GO!!!”""
Then Saban kicks his ass with a roundhouse kick to the jaw and gut…to let him know who’s boss
by Mr Pelican Pants on Nov 19, 2007 1:33 PM EST reply actions
So JPW is the scape goat for Saban’s shortcomings?
He was a damn good QB under Mike Shula. What happened?
by Erik on Nov 19, 2007 1:44 PM EST reply actions
#47
Yeh the #12 jersey seems to work just fine, dont know if its retired…..If we will get an out of state QB I think we will be ok eventually, thats such a crucial position and I think Florida now knows how it feels to have a stable QB that carries the team instead of QB that hurts it (Leak-pre 2006)
I hope we get that soon, the rest should fall into place the next 3 yrs if he can put 3 good years together recruiting like LSU did. Plus hopefully Applewhite will know what type of QB he needs, we know JPW aint it.
I still say if your recruiting in the SEC, you need to recruit answers to Georgia and Florida’s Tebow-Harvin psychic connection…they could well be the Brady-Moss version on the NCAA level…if you cant stop them you’d better have an offense that can score with them in a shootout, which we aint even close yet
by Mr Pelican Pants on Nov 19, 2007 1:55 PM EST reply actions
#49
I think Applewhite and Saban got into his head and probaly mindfucked him, kinda like what happened to Matt Leinhart at Arizona under his new coach…he regressed trying to learn “proper footwork” and “mechanics”, that Matt learned from Norm Chow, which is a damn good QB coach…Shula was a good QB coach,not taking that away from him, but when you get a QB comfortable doing things a certain way, then halfway into change it, its hard to do and most guys cant do it and thats what we are seeing happen live and in person…Chaos @ a position you dont need chaos in
by Mr Pelican Pants on Nov 19, 2007 2:05 PM EST reply actions
Remember folks… bama always looks good in August and February. It’s November they seem to have a problem with.
by HFS on Nov 19, 2007 2:08 PM EST reply actions
That has to be the single largest post I’ve ever read on this forum.
You could have just summed it up with “Alabama lost to ULM because Saban can’t coach Shula’s players” or how about just plain “Wahhhhhhhhhh!”.
by crabs on Nov 19, 2007 2:08 PM EST reply actions
I think it’s funny that a coach who was fired from Navy beats Alabama.
by The 17th Goat on Nov 19, 2007 2:09 PM EST reply actions
Mr. P. P.,
How does Saban’s “sticks to his guns about not letting them play” philosophy jibe with D.J. Hall coming into a game in which he was supposed to be suspended?
May as well just give him an ice cream cone.
by TIGERinATL on Nov 19, 2007 2:12 PM EST reply actions
Pants, Georgia already played a game without half of it’s offensive line. It was against Tennessee and it was ugly. In this case they weren’t suspended; we think Phat Phil ate their souls before kickoff.
by SunDawg on Nov 19, 2007 2:12 PM EST reply actions
#56
Correct me if I’m wrong – but Moreno is actually the backup – right?
by crabs on Nov 19, 2007 2:13 PM EST reply actions
Crabs, yeah, he’s the backup; Brown is the starter.
by SunDawg on Nov 19, 2007 2:18 PM EST reply actions
#56
Ask Florida and Auburn if he’s the backup
by Mr Pelican Pants on Nov 19, 2007 2:20 PM EST reply actions
Jesus Saturday is going to be a long day. The 1.75 of Maker’s may be gone by kickoff.
Which mediocre QB will out-turn over the other? Cox vs JPW; an epic showdown of monumental proportions. Are Groves toes still dislocated? If not, he may have 14 sacks by the end of the game.
- - I sure hope you’re right.
by Bama93 on Nov 19, 2007 2:28 PM EST reply actions
#56
Thats my point…hard to do anything without the guys who have practiced on the “game plan” since August,
ask any Coach if he had his choice, would he rather try to win with his 2nd or 3rd string or his hand picked starters.
All will be forgotten if they can beat Auburn with the new and improved, well rested starters.
If not, it will be a long grueling offseason and the players that are left over and the new recruits will wish they were in hell, so they could catch a break….may be some personnel changes as well in the staff will happen since Saban is short on patience, its a dictatorship, no doubt, and the democracy “team hugs” feeling left when Shula did.
by Mr Pelican Pants on Nov 19, 2007 2:29 PM EST reply actions
#59
OK – Yoo hoo…. Florida, Auburn….. is Knowshon Moreno the backup tailback at UGA?
Pants, they both said yes.
by crabs on Nov 19, 2007 2:50 PM EST reply actions
Pants, Saban lived in the shadow of another Shula down here in South Florida when he made his attempt to coach the Dolphins. All things considered he will not be having Thanksgiving dinner at the Shula home.
The hacks down here were saying he’d stay at Alabama a couple of years and then leave (history repeats itself) for one of the northern schools, Notre Dame I think.
Anyway, he won’t be welcome to vacation down here until, uh, what’s the half-life of tridium?
by SunDawg on Nov 19, 2007 2:58 PM EST reply actions
- PeterPumpkinhead
Tennessee didn’t finish the 2000 season in the top 25. I’ve been seeing this “they were top 15 when we beat them” argument far too often.
by PW on Nov 19, 2007 3:16 PM EST reply actions
#62
Well I guess they can say they got whupped by the back up tail back, although he could start for 49 other D-1 programs, I guess that goes back to being a 5 star recruit that Richt picked up. Write it down, Moreno will compete with Tebow for the Heisman before they each go pro. Good to be a Gator or Dog for the next 3 yrs.
by Mr Pelican Pants on Nov 19, 2007 3:25 PM EST reply actions
#60
To expand on your Cox vs. Wilson observation, from The Joe Cribbs Car Wash :
Wilson vs. Cox in the Iron Bowl is the quarterbacking equivalent of a dance-off between sixth-graders on Red Bull smitten with the same girl: no one’s going to fault the energy, enthusiasm, willingness, commitment, etc., but boy, no one’s going to tune in for composure or technique, either.
by Lovecrafty on Nov 19, 2007 3:37 PM EST reply actions
“The Joe Cribbs Car Wash "
The funy thing is, Joe Cribbs did have a carwash on 280 years ago. The other funny thing is, if you know Joe Cribbs, you know he did not write that.
by King Harvest on Nov 19, 2007 4:40 PM EST reply actions
- - Bear would be PROUD of those excuses.
by George P. Burdell on Nov 19, 2007 6:00 PM EST reply actions
To Alabama fans everywhere:
Its always darkest before the dawn…
aw to hell with this sissy self help crap…
Fuck Fuck Fuckity Fuck Fuck Fuckenstein Fuck Monster
by Mr Pelican Pants on Nov 19, 2007 6:54 PM EST reply actions
62 LMAO!
Is it the “war” part that terrifies the bammers or it the bird-of-prey thing. I think that maybe the bammers just do not know the difference between a hawk and an eagle, and when they saw the warhawks they knew losing was their destiny.
by sheepman on Nov 19, 2007 8:31 PM EST reply actions

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