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March 31, 2006

75TH ANNIVERSARY OF KNUTE ROCKNE’S DEATH

75 years ago today, Notre Dame coach Knute Rockne died in a plane crash in Kansas. His lifetime record at just the age of 43: 105-12-5.

.881 lifetime. Yikes.

47 Responses to “75TH ANNIVERSARY OF KNUTE ROCKNE’S DEATH”

1

corey bailey says:

I could of sworn I saw him in the Chronicles of Riddick.

March 31st, 2006 at 10:52 am
2

bitterhorn says:

Best football name EVAR.

March 31st, 2006 at 11:22 am
3

Bill says:

Rockne’s last two teams went undefeated – 9-0 in 1929 and 10-0 in 1930.

Just think of how scary his record could have been had he not died at the peak of his career.

March 31st, 2006 at 12:09 pm
4

maskedavenger says:

Of course there is no assurance Rockne could have kept that up. He premature death locked in his winning percentage at .881.

For the sake of comparison, Fielding Yost started 55-1-1 at Michigan. In Yost’s first 13 years at Michigan, the length of Rockne’s career, he was 94-10-8 for a winning clip of .875. Yost finished his 23 year career at 165-29-10 or a .833 clip.

Now is it possible that Rockne would have continued at his amazing pace and not had a Yost or Joe Pa like tailspin at the end, but I tend to doubt it.

March 31st, 2006 at 1:55 pm
5

Dave says:

As a Michigan State grad, it killed me to learn that he was going to take the job in East Lansing until Notre Dame’s old head coach stepped down and gave him the opening.

March 31st, 2006 at 1:59 pm
6

Stacey Keibler Luvs Me says:

Notre Dame’s Rockne was legendary.

Some of their latest coaches: Charlie “Manzire” Weis, “Witless” Winningham, “Bleary” O’Leary the “Cheetie”, “Oust” Foust…

Man that is like going from the Penthouse to the Outhouse.

No wonder those Domers live in the past.

March 31st, 2006 at 2:25 pm
7

walkernd says:

Keibler boy your are a tool.

March 31st, 2006 at 2:30 pm
8

socalirish says:

SKLM -

I’ll give you Willingham, Faust, and throw in Davie. Can’t really count O’Leary since he never coached a practice or a game. But Weis? Damn, I can hardly wait for the fall to shut some folks up about Charlie.

March 31st, 2006 at 2:37 pm
9

walkernd says:

Would take Weis over any coach right now in college football.

March 31st, 2006 at 2:41 pm
10

The Contrarian says:

Irish fans are reporting on other sites about the few hundred ND faithful who are deciding to spend a few days in Bazaar, KS, to visit the crash site.

ND Nation’s The Rock reprints a 2001 article on the crash site and how it has been maintained by a farmer who saw Rockne’s plane go down in 1931.

March 31st, 2006 at 2:46 pm
11

heath says:

,881, bitches, .881

March 31st, 2006 at 2:49 pm
12

Stacey Keibler Luvs Me says:

Socalirish:

I’m always amazed at how Notre Dame has fans everywhere, even in USC-La-La-Land territory…

But, back to your point:

I think Charles Weis (after leaving grade school, the “ie” should be dropped from every male’s name. Even Bobby Knight dropped the kiddie name and became “Bob Knight” after he was 50-something, but I digress…)

… if Charles has a great year he’ll jump to the pros. If he lays an egg, he will quit or get canned. Either way, I do not see him as a college coach, until he beats a top 25 team, at least!

Even if he has a good year, his critics will say it was just because of the soft schedule. Whoooptydoo. (Let’s not get going again about the merits, or lack thereof, of games with the academies.)

I do like Rockne, though. Sort of like the Babe Ruth of college football.

March 31st, 2006 at 2:51 pm
13

walkernd says:

SKLM,
What a well thought out post. Next time just say you don’t like ND and leave it at that. What Weis did last year with a 6-6 ND team was significant. He has stated several times he wants to stay at ND for the next 10+ years. He will be at ND for awhile and he will do well. Yes there are ND fans everywhere, be afraid.

March 31st, 2006 at 2:58 pm
14

Bystander says:

SKLU – Please stop posting, you reveal your ignorance with each comment.

March 31st, 2006 at 3:00 pm
15

socalirish says:

SKLM -

If Charlie has a good year, well, let’s just see if he jumps to the pros. So far, his actions have stood by his word (pass right, suspending Rashon Powers-Neal). If he lays and egg, I doubt he’ll quit and I’m positive he won’t be canned. As for the soft schedule if he has a good year, well let’s see who is on that schedule that finished in the top 25 AP poll this year, better yet, how about the top 16:

USC – #2
Penn St – #3
UCLA – #16

They also play a decent team from Ann Arbor as well.
You know, I’m pretty sure that the Academies would beat the snot out of the Division IAA opponents that many teams schedule as part of their non-conference (see Navy in the Poinsetta Bowl on 12/22 kicking the shit out of Colorado St.). These schedules are made years in advance. Nobody is saying anything less about Texas winning the MNC this year when they only played OSU and USC.

March 31st, 2006 at 3:16 pm
16

Brian says:

He looks like a second string Vin Diesel.

March 31st, 2006 at 3:23 pm
17

humbaba says:

SKLM,

- What relevance does Charlie’s name have vis-a-vis your point?

- If a coach having a great year means he’ll go to the pros, does that mean that Pete Carroll has had nothing but lousy years?

- On Weis having a bad year: everyone has a different definition of a bad year. Your contention that he would quit if adversity struck his second season has no basis in fact. After all, if he had a bad year and simply quit because of it, what team would hire such a quitter? And ND wouldn’t want to look “racist” by firing him after his second year, would they? After all, Ty had three years to show progress!

By the way, ND has already beaten several top 25 teams. Michigan was #3 when they beat them, Pittsburgh was #23 when ND laid them out, and Purdue was #22.

So, no matter what Weis does, he cannot win in the eyes of his critics (of course, YOU’RE not a critic, are you?). Oh, and no need to rag on the Naval Academy. You seem to act as if no other Div 1-A team has any “gimmees” on its schedule. Let�s take a look at some teams played by the National Champion Texas Longhorns:

Louisiana-Lafayette
Rice
Baylor
Kansas
Texas A&M

Pretty damn brutal stuff.

March 31st, 2006 at 3:28 pm
18

Stacey Keibler Luvs Me says:

SocalIrish:

Too bad college football does not have a playoff system, like March Madness, where the champion would be determined on the field, like real men, and soft scheduling would not be a factor, rather than by ballot by writers and coaches who are about as biased as I am…..

March 31st, 2006 at 3:31 pm
19

socalirish says:

SKLM -

I’m a proponent of a playoff system as well.

March 31st, 2006 at 3:39 pm
20

PSUgirl says:

ah, I see that the spring “practice” Notre Dame bashing/defending has begun. We dust off our tried and true insults – “like Gerry Faust pacing the sideline” and we try out ones we’ve been working on since January – “Why did Brady Quinn take sandpaper into the desert? He said he needed a map” – to see if they need retooling before the leaves begin to change.

March 31st, 2006 at 3:49 pm
21

rob says:

SKLM, I’d say that Red Grange was the Babe Ruth of college football.

March 31st, 2006 at 3:58 pm
22

rob says:

But then again, that debate basically is equal to my most hated type of debates: semantical ones.

March 31st, 2006 at 4:00 pm
23

Stacey Keibler Luvs Me says:

Humbaba:

1. I thought my Charles/Charlie commentary was funny. A 300lb+ man being called �Charlie� makes about as much sense as a bald man being called �Curly�. (By the way, you are on the EDSBS site, which REQUIRES stabs at humor, even though people fail more often than not at this endeavor, including moi. Lighten up dudette.)

See PSU Girls recent commentary as Exhibit 1A.

2. Carroll has had his time, albeit mediocre, in the NFL. Charles Weis has not been the �man� in the NFL, but has just been a loyal spear carrier. I am sure he would like to take on the challenge of the pros.

3. The teams ND beat were not in the top 25 at the end of the season last year. ND�s losses, coupled with the bowl loss to the brainiacs from OSU, and voila, to me that was not a good season. Charles was not satisfied with the season either, by the way.

4. If you are going to be a big time coach, expect big time scrutiny, from all angles, especially if you take yourself too seriously.

5. Of course Texas had gimmes, like every other school. But, they were part of a conference whereas ND cherry picks its games. (Playoffs anyone?)

I’ll lay off ND for the rest of the day, in the spirit of magnanimity…..

March 31st, 2006 at 4:00 pm
24

Tommy Gee says:

SKLM, When did Rice and LA LA join the Big 12?

March 31st, 2006 at 4:10 pm
25

Rome says:

Hey! Screw all of you. Charlie is still undefeated in the “Meatnormous” division of the fighting coaches contest, so leave him alone.

After he loses there, call him whatever you want. I personally like Chuck. It rolls right off the tongue when the Domers go for it on 4 & goal from the one and don’t make it. “What the fuck, Chuck?”

March 31st, 2006 at 4:11 pm
26

tjf says:

SKLM-

last i checked, Louisiana-Lafayette wasn’t in the Big XII. warrants mentioning.

the best way to ensure you play a bunch of teams who finish in the top 25 each year is to lose to them.

ahhh, the phoenix-like pro/anti-nd cycle. football can’t be too far away.

March 31st, 2006 at 4:13 pm
27

humbaba says:

“I�ll lay off ND for the rest of the day, in the spirit of magnanimity�.. ”

I.E., My points are too flimsy to defend. I quit.

March 31st, 2006 at 4:26 pm
28

Orson Swindle says:

Please: even we, of all people, love to mock. But Rockne’s death is one of the worst disasters in college football history.

March 31st, 2006 at 4:37 pm
29

parker91 says:

even worse than the 6-4 game from 2004? That was a disaster of epic proportions!

March 31st, 2006 at 4:40 pm
30

Orson Swindle says:

Worse than Vinny Testeverde’s 5 INTs versus PSU.

March 31st, 2006 at 4:54 pm
31

Kahuna says:

Don’t care about Notre Dame. They have a good history, haven’t quite lived up to expectations recently. Weis may or may not be the Greatest CFB Coach since Pete Carroll, only time will tell.

What is really important though is that we clear up a misconception: Texas did not play a cupcake schedule last year. Everybody plays a couple of teams that aren’t Top 25 caliber. Yeah, U-LaLa and Rice ain’t exactly world beaters, but neither are Washington or Syracuse. Baylor almost made it to .500 last year and Kansas is actually a decent football team (I suggest it stems from the conditioning provided by constantly having to escape Coach Mangino’s gravity well). A&M is in the midst of a poor coach cycle but is historically a good team. The Big 12 in general was much maligned last season for being weak, but ended up doing really well when it came to bowl season, which seesm to me a good indicator of how it matched up against the “stronger” conferences.

Now, I’m sure there will be detractors. But I don’t care. How’s that for an argument?

March 31st, 2006 at 5:15 pm
32

PSUgirl says:

A score of 6-4 is an offense disaster of epic proportions but a defensive masterpiece. I don’t care what anyone says about that game – getting 2 safeties in one game is a great feat – as is shutting out the opposing team’s offense. Besides, we had a wonderful tailgate that day – humpf!

March 31st, 2006 at 6:02 pm
33

parker91 says:

wasn’t the second safety intentional? I could have dealt with 6-2, but 6-4 made thought that I was transported Winnipeg or Vancouver or some other place with weird football scores.

March 31st, 2006 at 6:19 pm
34

tnirishfan says:

6-4 is an abomination of nature… I don’t care whose teams were playing.

March 31st, 2006 at 8:40 pm
35

IrishGuard says:

Rockne went out of his way to play the best during those barnstorming tours. Yost was a weenie anti-Catholic bigot who dodged ND when he could and watered down his schedule. They simply aren’t comparable.

IG

April 1st, 2006 at 3:32 pm
36

maskedavenger says:

“Rockne went out of his way to play the best during those barnstorming tours. Yost was a weenie anti-Catholic bigot who dodged ND when he could and watered down his schedule. They simply aren�t comparable.”

Actually, Yost’s distaste for ND had far more to do with the fact that ND skirted more than a few rules in its attempt to achieve Michigan’s level of success. But congratulations for spewing forth the typical ND propoganda approved by the NDNation zealots.

The odd thing is that even Rockne would disagree with you. In his day, Yost was Steve Spurrier writ large – a braggart who could back it up. The beginning of Rockne’s animosity toward Yost began when Yost did not name him to one of the All-American teams. From that moment on, Rockne sought to beat Yost and UM. So to Rockne, Yost was comparable.

By the way, did you know that ND is currently on the longest bowl losing streak in NCAA history?

April 2nd, 2006 at 3:13 pm
37

T. Kyle King says:

I tend to agree with maskedavenger (comment no. 4); it’s hard to believe Coach Rockne would have kept up that amazing clip had his life and career not been cut short by tragedy.

When we look at the later years of such coaches as Joe Paterno, Bobby Bowden, Vince Dooley, Wally Butts, and Lou Holtz, we see drop-offs (sometimes precipitous drop-offs) in their previous success.

However, it seldom is the case that a successful head coach simply forgets how to win the way major league closers sometimes lose the ability to find the plate.

Had he coached another 17 years, until he was 60, Coach Rock probably would not have won 88 per cent of his games over the long haul, but it seems doubtful that he would have lost it altogether. He died in 1931 at age 43; if he had remained on the Notre Dame sidelines until he was 60, his tenure would have ended in the late 1940s.

The sort of “sea changes” in the game that occurred in the early 1970s (with the integration of Southern state universities) and in the early 1990s (with the advent of sophisticated passing attacks and the implementation of more advanced training and dietary regimens) did not occur in sweeping fashion between 1931 and, say, 1948.

It is for that reason that I have difficulty believing that the game would have passed Knute Rockne by. What won in ‘31 remained great in ‘48.

The Fighting Irish are like the New York Yankees of college football . . . you either love ‘em or you hate ‘em, but, if you follow the sport, you cannot be neutral about them the way you can most other teams that aren’t in your conference or division.

While I do not share the negative view of Charlie Weis offered by some commentators in this thread, I agree that the jury remains out on Coach Weis. He may be great, but we cannot tell that based solely on one season’s worth of work. We will know more a year from now, and still more a year after that. At this point, his long-term success is pure speculation and conjecture.

Such is not the case with Coach Rockne, however. He was a proven winner who was cut down in his prime and, had he survived, I have no doubt that his legend would have grown, rather than been diminished, by the subsequent years of a career sadly truncated.

April 3rd, 2006 at 1:52 pm
38

NDAlum says:

Comparing winning percentages of Yost and Rockne is a disservice to Rockne because his legend goes beyond merely winning games. It was the cross country rivalries his teams played, going to New York to play Army (a college football power at the time) and LA to play USC, creating the first truly national college football schedule when most teams stayed within a couple of hundred miles of campus. Those away games created the legend of the Four Horsemen and “win one for the Gipper”. It was the attitude of taking on anyone, anywhere. It also helped that there was a social impact to a Catholic school being successful, drawing Catholic fans that now had a successful institution to identify with and to send there children for the hopes of a better future. Michigan and Yost didn’t have these impacts on the college football and social worlds.

April 3rd, 2006 at 10:07 pm
39

maskedavenger says:

Whether or not the current ND alums want to admit it, at the time, Rockne and ND aspired to be Michigan both academically and athletically. Again, at the time, ND was not the academic school that it is now nor was it the football powerhouse that it is now (or at least was 15-20 years ago). Michigan taught ND to play, and ND’s stadium is a smaller replica of Michigan’s, which of course was designed by Yost. Aside of designing Michigan Stadium (and getting the Michigan golf course built as well as many other Michigan athletic buildings), Yost’s team also won the inagural Rose Bowl. His early teams dominated the early part of the 20th century.

Certainly, ND is now an excellent academic institution and it has a great football pedigree. But to claim that any comparison between Yost and Rockne is insulting is a difficult argument to make.

April 3rd, 2006 at 10:33 pm
40

pantalones says:

“ND�s stadium is a smaller replica of Michigan�s, which of course was designed by Yost.” I’ve been to both, and I see few similarities. Is Michigan Stadium not built into the ground?

As I recollect, Yost was instrumental in excluding ND from the Western Conference.

For what it’s worth, Murray Sperber chronicles the history of the Yost vs. Rockne “rivalry” in the early chapters of “Shake Down the Thunder”. Recommended.

April 3rd, 2006 at 10:46 pm
41

maskedavenger says:

And I would recommend “Natural Enemies” to you. It looks at both programs’ dirty laundry. It also extensively discusses the early relationship between the two universities – some of which is not pretty.

It is discusses how ND came to UM so as to replicate the UM stadium.

April 4th, 2006 at 10:47 am
42

ND Alum says:

It is insulting to try to compare Yost and Rockne based only on winning percentages as was tried. yes, everyone knows that it was Michigan that taught ND how to play football. But what is usually left out is that the afternoon of that day, Michigan and ND played their first game of the rivalry and, believe it or not, Michigan won. In fact, Michigan won the first eight games of the rivalry until ND finally beat the Yost coached team in 1909. Then, after playing each other a half dozen times in the previous decade, the two teams didn’t meet until 1942, after Athletic Director Yost left Michigan in 1941. Coincidence? Much of those accomplishments you speak of (the stadium and golf course) were done as the athletic director and not the football coach. And Yost taking Michigan to the first Rose Bowl to play Stanford probably had nothing to do with Yost being the head coach at Stanford the year before…

At the time, Michigan represented the best in the mid-west and of course ND was aspiring to be the best. ND even tried to join the same athletic conference, but when they were rebuffed, ND decided to aspire to be the in the US. Instead of hating Michigan, we should be thankful. Playing the national schedule was probably the best thing that ever happened to the university, significantly raising its profile and attracting fans and students across the nation.

April 4th, 2006 at 10:49 am
43

maskedavenger says:

The Notre Dame fans’ repeated attempts to belittle Yost’s coaching accomplishments are puzzling. It is not disputed that Rockne’s fame has continued to this day, while Yost’s has largely faded. But Rockne’s accomplishments are not out of Yost’s league. An .881 winning clip versus .833 (at Michigan). Four claimed National titles versus six for Yost (let’s skip the retroactive amorphous title discussion for now). ND fans relish the national games that Rockne played, yet seem to want to diminish the fact that when the first Rose Bowl was played (and the second for that matter) that Michigan was the team that was brought across the country to do it.

The two men detested each other. But both were great coaches.

April 4th, 2006 at 12:31 pm
44

ND Alum says:

Never said that he wasn’t a great coach or try to belittle the accomplishments…it seems to me that its the Michigan fans that hate to see a comment about Rockne without trying to point out that Yost is, as you said, largely faded away. This is really just a Michigan fan trying to make sure that his guy isn’t forgotten in all the hype and rememberance of a Notre Dame legend.

As I said, the rememberance of Rockne is more than just the winning percentage. You ask any casual college football fan if they know who Knute Rockne was and they know about Notre Dame, the Four Horsemen, and “win one for the Gipper”. I would bet that there isn’t nearly the same name recognition for Fielding Yost. I consider myself a reasonably informed college football fan and beyond knowing that he was a coach at Michigan (and has a hockey rinked named after him), I would have been hard-pressed to name anything else about him. A quick google search has revealed much to me, but that’s the point…you have to go out of your way to find out about Yost while Rockne is just known.

But, okay, let’s look at winning percentages. Yost went 55-1-1 in his first five seasons (claiming four national championships in that time, or the 1901-1904 championships; the other two came in 1918 and 1923), 94-10-8 in his first 13 years (.875 for the length of Rockne’s career), and 165-29-10 at Michigan (.833). Six national championships in about 25 years of coaching. All fine numbers.

But Rockne’s career record was 105-12-5 (.881) with five national championships (to keep things equal, I’m using http://www.nationalchamps.net) between 1918 and 1930. Or five in 12 years of coaching. And ND’s only Rose Bowl appearance, a win against Stanford, which was also ND’s only bowl appearance until 1969.

In the years that they were both coaching (1918 to 1923, 1925 and 1926), Yost was 46-9-2 (or a .807 winning percentage) and Rockne was 64-7-4 (or a .853 winning percentage).

Who would you rather have? Like it our not, five percentage points is a pretty big deal when we’re talking about numbers this high.

April 4th, 2006 at 2:58 pm
45

maskedavenger says:

So during their overlapping years, Rockne had one national title and Yost had two.

I have already ceded the pointed that Rockne currently is more famous. But I won’t cede the point that it is an insult to mention Yost’s accomplishments in the same breath as Rockne’s.

My personal belief is that most people know of Knute Rockne because of the movie. I too am a fairly serious college football fan and while I know that there were 4 horsemen, I can’t name a single one of them. And until this thread, I would only have been able to guess that Rockne was their coach. So, at least as far as I am concerned, there exists a generalized knowledge of Rockne, but not much of the particulars.

Having said that, again, I agree that most football fans still know more about Rockne (at least a little) than Yost (almost nothing at all).

I presume most ND fans feel similar to UM fans in that college football is special because of tradition. I don’t see the need to ignore a significant part of Michigan’s tradition merely because it has not received it historical due to date.

P.S. I goofed about the 2nd Rose Bowl. Michigan did not return until 1948.

April 4th, 2006 at 3:41 pm
46

ND Alum says:

“P.S. I goofed about the 2nd Rose Bowl. Michigan did not return until 1948.”

Noticed, but wasn’t going to mention it.

And actually, during those overlapping years, both are credited with two national championships (ND – 1919, 1920; Michigan – 1918, 1923) with ND winning the 1924 title while Yost was not the Michigan coach.

“But I won�t cede the point that it is an insult to mention Yost�s accomplishments in the same breath as Rockne�s.”

Ummm…actually, if you go back to how this all started, in comment 38, the term was “disservice” and not “insult”. I was merely trying to point out that if you just look purely at numbers to compare Yost and Rockne, then you’re missing the entire picture and doing a disservice to Rockne’s legacy.

“I presume most ND fans feel similar to UM fans in that college football is special because of tradition. I don�t see the need to ignore a significant part of Michigan�s tradition merely because it has not received it historical due to date.”

Yup…and from one biased observer, Michigan and ND have the two top tradition’s (with USC, Alabama, and Nebraska just outside): top two in all-time wins, winning percentage (ND will get that back…), and fight song’s, not to mention everything else.

April 4th, 2006 at 3:58 pm
47

Stacey Keibler Luvs Me says:

This latest love fest between UM and ND is sickening….I was enjoying the cat fight.

UM’s football program is sinking faster than Paris Hilton’s “Class B” celeberty shelf life. If you do not believe me, go ask your favorite radio-head – Colin Cowherd. (GET OVER IT.)

ND is nursing the longest bowl losing streak in the country and has not done a thing of significance lately.

Both of your schools should continue to revel in the jurassic past of the first part of the 20th century, because their is no future.

Cheety McSweatervest at Ohio State will continue to spank UM and I would put my dough on the Irishman from USC (Carroll) to continue to win against the Joisy boy from ND (Weis).

But to get to the nitty gritty: UM and ND have a terrible tradition of not having the level of hot chicks that a quality program deserves!

April 4th, 2006 at 6:50 pm