BLOG POLL BALLOT
Only one more week to go before the bowl season is upon us. It is a bittersweet time in college football. So, without further ado, we give you our melancholy addition of our Blog Poll Ballot.
1. Texas. They struggled a bit, but it was a rivalry game and USC was idle leaving us only with the memory of almost losing to Fresno State, who was losing to Nevada, so Texas stays put.
2. USC. Despite the close calls, the winning streak speaks for itself.
3. Penn State. There are a whole bunch of UCLA fans in the northeast this weekend.
4. LSU. That was a close one, but Arkansas was a much improved team as the year progressed. They probably would have one the Big XII North if they were over there.
5. Virginia Tech. Beamer ball was back and in full effect. But I am still wondering what the hell happened to Marcus Mexico?
6. Ohio State.
7. Notre Dame: Close call. Notre Dame looks great at times, but I am still left a little unsatisfied by the fact that their best win was a close loss to USC.
8. Auburn. Who wants to play them in the bowls???
9. Oregon: There best win is who?
10. UCLA. The are still alive for a BCS appearance and hero worship status in Louisianna or Pennsylvania.
11. Georgia: Did both offenses forget to show up for the game on Saturday? Be that as it may, the Dawgs have to be happy that they tookout Tech for the 5th straight year.
12. Miami: They took care of business, but didn’t do anything to impress in the process.
13. Alabama
14. West Virginia. Too bad USF choked last week as it would have been a pseudo championship game in Tampa this week.
15. TCU. Taking over for Fresno State as the quality mid-major thanks to the Nevada debacle.
16. Florida. FSU rolled over, but that was still the Gator’s best performance of the year. Finally the offense looks like a blend of Meyer’s spread system with some tweaks to protect the quarterback from certain death.
17. Louisville: How will the scheme hold up without Brohm in the bowl game?
18. Boston College. The following teams are rising by default.
19. Texas Tech.
20. Wisconsin.
21. Michigan.
22. Oklahoma.
23. Iowa
24. Georgia Tech: Tough loss.
25. UCF. Why not. I mean, who is really getting screwed by UCF being ranked.
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1
Rick says:
With all due respect, LSU at #4 is a joke. They won by 2 at home against a team that lost to SC by a score of 70-17. 70-17. I saw that game and the score wasn’t that close. Poodle had the third team throwing touchdown passes at the end. If it makes sense to punish Notre Dame for winning by 7 on the road, it makes a lot more sense to punish LSU for winning by 2 at home. ND had the excuse of having a kicker who was injured the previous week miss two short field goals, an extra point and kick a pooch kickoff to the 25 that was run back. What was LSU’s excuse for being even crappier at home? The SEC is a circle jerk of mediocrity and LSU has replaced Alabama as its standard bearer.
November 30th, 2005 at 11:32 am
2
Orson Swindle says:
Ah, Rick, it’s just about records at this point. We think LSU at 4 is fair, but anyone at that spot is going to look wobbly when you survey the other candidates. And putting a team with two wins there would be absurd.
As for the “circle jerk of mediocrity”…well, we’re inclined to agree in less graphic terms, though the bowls could surprise everyone, which they usually do.
November 30th, 2005 at 11:46 am
3
Nick says:
I think Auburn is currently the toughest in the SEC. LSU will be exposed at some point ala AL, who just folded after the Prothro injury. While I do agree the primary reason ND got a scare at Stanford to be the injury of DJ Fitzpatrick, that is why you play the game, and no one is going to give ND a higher ranking due to lack of depth at PK. Basically, Stanford played as good of a game as they could with their talent – 2 penalties, 2-0 in TO’s, KR for TD. Just good college football. I think Weis is the only man on the planet with a $3 million a year contract who can’t wipe his nose.
November 30th, 2005 at 12:01 pm
4
Stranko Montana says:
You could make a valid argument and counter argument for most of the teams from 3-8 to be in a different order. I think Notre Dame v. LSU would be a hell of a game which I’d love to watch as LSU is supremely talented, fast and deep and Notre Dame is playing extremely well on offense. But I guess you forgot they lost to Michigan State, which is about as bad as losing to Tennessee, and their crowing acheivement at this point is that they beat a 3 loss Michigan team I guess.
November 30th, 2005 at 12:12 pm
5
John says:
Nice work… LSU at 4 is a joke because they are one of worst one loss teams in America, but they are a one loss team. Notre Dame at 7 is a disgrace. They have beaten no one. Oregon, Auburn, Georgia, or UCLA would kill the Irish in the Fiesta. Too bad that Ohio State gets to do it. I would love to see the SEC take them out, although I will agree that they are down somewhat this season. I believe that it is only because they actually play defense. Good Call on Auburn, no one wants to play them, they would have never lost to GT if it were not the first game of the year with a first start QB. Ohio St vs Auburn would be the best Fiesta match up.
November 30th, 2005 at 12:18 pm
6
Rick says:
I wasn’t arguing to swap ND with LSU. Nor would I excuse an ND loss due to an injured kicker but they did actually win the game. With 663 yards of total offense and holding Stanford to 1-11 on third down. If ‘it’s just about records at this point,’ where’s West Virginia and Oregon?
Every time an SEC team pops it’s head out of the south (Georgia and Bama don’t ever actually do this so we can’t talk about them) we see USC 70 Arkansas 17 or ND 41 Tennesee 21 or LSU running for their lives veresus mighty ASU. It makes all this “Alabama had a hard fought 6-3 win over Tennesee” or “LSU lost a tough one to a never say die Tennesee team” or “LSU survives a scary game to scrappy Arkansas” laughable to the rest of the world. The SEC is the Big East with a better PR department.
November 30th, 2005 at 12:24 pm
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Orson Swindle says:
Again, Rick, we respectfully disagree–replace “SEC” with “Big 12 with a better PR department,” and you’ll get something more accurate.
November 30th, 2005 at 12:26 pm
8
Kevin says:
Should read:
3. Penn State. There are a whole bunch of drunk and (already) pantless UCLA fans in hunting cabins all over Central Pennsylvania this weekend.
November 30th, 2005 at 12:45 pm
9
LD says:
Rick’s doing some pretty nice HP/CFR “heh…indeed” trolling there.
That’s the downside of writing a great post like the ESPN one – readership geometrically multiplies, but you must suffer the message board Nobel Laureates for a while.
November 30th, 2005 at 12:53 pm
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Rick says:
John, I guess we can compare notes on January 3rd to see who killed Notre Dame the day before. Given that they have five weeks to spend with Weis and Co to practice and heal up (maybe their second team or even first team DE will be in the game unlike Saturday) and Weis has four weeks after this weekend to gameplan I’m feeling a little bit more confident about their chances than you are. If mighty Auburn does come out of the ‘tough SEC’ to play them I’m sure their defense will be a more daunting task than the ‘01 Rams, ‘03 Panthers or ‘04 Eagles were for Weis to gameplan his offense against but at least he has four weeks instead of two to do it so there’s some hope for we Irish fans.
November 30th, 2005 at 1:02 pm
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Rick says:
LD, I’m way to unhip to know what “HP/CFR “heh…indeed” trolling” is but, if you look in the comments from past posts you’ll see I’ve been here for quite a while. Though it is comforting that you get validation by acting superior on a blog comment thread.
November 30th, 2005 at 1:06 pm
12
John says:
Rick, you crack me up. Weis is a fine coach, but all you Golden Domers jump on a bandwagon just to break it down. Being in Indiana, I remember everyone thinking the second coming was Ty Willingham. He won his first season as well, and look what Notre Dame did to him. If the Irish beat Ohio St, Auburn or Oregon, which ever they play, then I will agree that Notre Dame is pretty good. Comparing ND to New England is just plan wrong. Quinn is not a professional Brady, and the ND defense is not even in the same ballpark.
November 30th, 2005 at 1:18 pm
13
thehakujin says:
Rick, when you dropped this bomb right here: “USC 70 Arkansas 17 or ND 41 Tennesee 21,” you forgot to add two things — The Razorbacks are one of the worst teams in the major conferences. Congrats USC. And Notre Dame beat Tennessee 41 – 21… so that brings Tennessee’s record this year to 1 – 927. Congrats Notre Dame.
Weis has done a great job up there, and Notre Dame has had a great season. They got hyped up out of their minds for USC and Weis (again) did a ridiculous job of getting them ready for that game. Then they beat a mid-major-like Michigan, and lost to a 5A-High-School-like Michigan State. LSU squeaked by a couple teams, and inexplicably lost to Tennessee. But that’s it. They lost to Tennessee. And as any LuckEye will tell you, those W’s are W’s, even if it was a close call at the hands of the Aztecs, or a bad call by a ref in the back of the championship game endzone.
And one last note — Never talk about… wait, let me rephrase… Never, fucking ever talk about the SEC, the Big 10, or any other conference in any negative fashion… until Notre Dame grows a pair and decides to join one.
November 30th, 2005 at 2:30 pm
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Stranko Montana says:
For the record, I would fear what Weiss could do with 5 weeks to prepare. That is one of the things I dislike about the bowl system actually. I’d prefer to what teams can do on back to back weeks through a playoff or in lieu of that I’d like to see the championship played a week or max 2 weeks after the season ends.
November 30th, 2005 at 2:30 pm
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rick says:
And one last note — Never talk about… wait, let me rephrase… Never, fucking ever talk about the SEC, the Big 10, or any other conference in any negative fashion… until Notre Dame grows a pair and decides to join one.
You’re right Hakujin, ND Scheduled the pre-season #1, #3, #4 and two other pre-season top 25 teams this year because they ‘don’t have a pair.’ You may want to educate yourself as to what happened when ND tried to join the Big 10 back in the 20’s. Because Michigan blackballed them they were forced to play any team, anywhere they could. That’s why they were called ‘The Ramblers’ before they were known as The Fighting Irish. Maybe someday they’ll get a pair and join a rough tough conference. You’re a fucking moron.
November 30th, 2005 at 3:02 pm
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notre dame alum says:
“Never talk about… wait, let me rephrase… Never, fucking ever talk about the SEC, the Big 10, or any other conference in any negative fashion… until Notre Dame grows a pair and decides to join one.”
thehakujin – this has never, ever made any sense. The comment is always made to imply that ND does not play a decent schedule and they don’t know what its like to play a “real” schedule because they’re not in a conference. On this year’s schedule, ND had 3 of the 8 2004 BCS participants (Pitt, Michigan, USC). And on the 2004 schedule, ND had those same three teams plus Florida State (went to a 2003 BCS game) on the schedule. I haven’t gone through too many team’s schedules, but I would be willing to bet that this sort of scheduling is pretty rare. So what it looks like to me is that while ND doesn’t play in a conference, they do play a sampling of the champions of the BCS conferences. I think that allows for some level of credibility to discussions of the relative merits of the different conferences.
November 30th, 2005 at 3:21 pm
17
IrishMace says:
I’m sure Orson and Stranko aren’t big fans of this becoming a Notre Dame thread, but…
Why doesn’t [insert your favorite school here] grow a pair and try making it without the warm, socialist bosom of a conference to fall back on when times are rough? Do you think Miami, Florida St., and Penn St. joined conferences in the 90’s because they felt they just weren’t challenging themselves enough? No conference schedule out there is any tougher than the one ND plays (year to year variances in opponents notwithstanding), and opponents “get up” for ND just as much as for their conference foes.
November 30th, 2005 at 4:19 pm
18
LD says:
Inserting [hackneyed] arguments into a comment thread that have nothing to with the post is trolling, no matter how long you’ve been around.
And if you don’t know Heismanpundit or College Football Resource, you might want to stroll over there. Your [tired, empty] arguments would be accepted without much critical analysis.
And for the record, I feel superior by the size of my massive edifice of a wang, not by comments.
November 30th, 2005 at 4:37 pm
19
Nick says:
the hakujin proves that literacy doesn’t equal wisdom. ND needs to grow a pair and schedule tougher by joing a conference? Yeah, those SEC OOC games are fucking tough. How about TT and UO? Next year, ND has GT, PSU, Michigan, UCLA, and USC. Find a tougher three games to open a season than GT/PSU/Michigan. As you said, a w is a w, so that makes MSU and TN equals? I mean, they are both 5-6, so they are perfectly equal in your eyes, and both 5A HS teams. So, ND and LSU both got knocked off by 5A HS teams.
ND’s schedule didn’t measure up in final performance of opponenents, but at least ND had the balls to schedule it. Everyone was predicting 1-5 to start. I root for OSU to get the other at large because they had the coinpurse to schedule TX, and Oregon got 1-AA Montana. (Granted, I hear IU was supposed to be that game, but TX stil way better than IU) Anyway, they could have invited Kenyon college over to scrimmage, have one loss, and be guaranteed a BCS, but they picked TX, and I think that should be rewarded. What general fan of CFB remembers UO vs MT? Who remebers OSU vs. TX? Exactly.
In terms of “potential” matchups vs ND in Fiesta, in decreasing order of likelihood to beat ND, I have OSU>PSU>AU>UO>GA>LSU.
OSU can pass now, and has a scrambling QB, ditto PSU. Auburn has great running attack, but ND’s defense matches up way better than vs PSU or OSU. UO, I think they are good, but a close victory over WSU, which team shows up for them? – I give them credit for doing what they did without their starting QB. GA and LSU are overrated. LSU should have lost to AU and ASU, and nearly lost to to Arkansas.
Bottom line is that I cannot wait to see ND vs OSU. Should be classic.
November 30th, 2005 at 4:42 pm
20
Plowhand says:
Rick you silly Mick. Calm down. Most of those pre-season top ten teams you mentioned turned out to be a joke (including Tennessee). But that is irrelevant to what is happening at this point in the season. And to make that arguement I would hope you would at least consider that the Tennessee team that came back to beat LSU was a different Tennessee than the orange pussies who had quit on themselves and lost to your Irish. But whatever.
Good season, good coach, good luck, but LSU would molest you worse than your priest did.
November 30th, 2005 at 4:45 pm
21
Solon says:
More of that tired old SEC-bashing bollocks, Rick?
Perhaps you´d like to take a long-term view and you´ll see that historically, the SEC really kicks the shit out of any conference. Their bowl record since they took their current alignment in 1992 is 47-32–miles ahead of any other conference–and they don´t have favorable bowl matchups, the way (e.g.) the Pac 10 does, where their 3rd place team plays a 5th place Big 10 team in the Sun Bowl, or where their 2nd place team plays a 3rd place Big 12 team in the Holiday.
Furthermore, as regards talent, if you look at the NFL, you´ll see that the SEC makes every other conference look like a joke. USC, current standard-bearer of CFB and recent dominator of the sport, has 32 players in the NFL. If I am not mistaken, 6 SEC teams have more than this number, and Georgia, Florida, and Tennessee all have 50 or more players on current NFL rosters.
And, my God, quoting the USC-Arkansas score? Are you shitting me? I mean, the CFB blogosphere wasn´t really in full swing then, but can you imagine SEC people alleging that because LSU beat Arizona 51-7 in 2003 (or whatever it was) that it proved that the Pac 10 was shit? I´ve heard that USC-Arkansas score bandied about 500 times this season as if it meant something.
You may not like the style of play in the SEC, but to argue that they don´t have a distinguished record of achievement, or the conference schools aren´t loaded with talent, is a bit of a joke.
November 30th, 2005 at 5:15 pm
22
Orson Swindle says:
Sometimes it’s like being a warden watching convicts beat each other bloody from the comfort of the panopticon tower–entertaining, and always a little disturbing.
November 30th, 2005 at 5:35 pm
23
Jeff says:
25. UCF. Why not. I mean, who is really getting screwed by UCF being ranked
Thank you.
November 30th, 2005 at 5:41 pm
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rick says:
Arizona won one conference game in 2003, Arkansas just lost by two points on the road to the highest ranked SEC team. Some people might think those are two different situations. The USC-Arkansas score wasn’t brought up in a vacuum but in the context of the LSU-Arkansas score. Ditto Tennessee who lost to Alabama 6-3, beat LSU and lost by 20 points to a now supposedly mediocre ND team. The original point was this: if it’s fair to punish ND for winning by 7 on the road against Stanford, it’s even ‘more’ fair to punish LSU for winning by 2 at home against Arkansas. Of course you don’t see the logic in this because you don’t understand that the SEC is the Big East with better PR.
What huge win has the SEC achieved outside of their circle-jerk conference this year? I at least credit Arkansas, LSU and Tennesee for making the effort. Georgia and Bama haven’t been outside of a roughly five state area during the regular season in 40 fucking years. (I’m confident you’ll find an obscure exeption or two to my hyperbole).
November 30th, 2005 at 6:15 pm
25
Stranko Montana says:
Where are you getting Notre Dame as a mediocre team from? We ranked them 7 in the nation right up next to Ohio State for 2 loss teams (ahead of SEC 2 loss team Auburn) and ahead of UWV and Oregon who have only 1 loss. I am a huge fan of what Notre Dame did this season it is just in looking back with hindsight they lack a signature win which justifies putting them above the teams in front of them. Frankly, I think Auburn is the best team in SEC right now, but I can’t justify putting them in front of LSU either since LSU played essentially the same schedule, has one less loss and beat them head to head (thanks to a kicker meltdown).
November 30th, 2005 at 6:23 pm
26
Underbruin says:
On ND – Though it’s true that the teams they scheduled appeared to all be tough before the season began, as they say, “that’s why they play the games.” It’s unfortunate, but I think you really do have to punish the Domers for their weak schedule this season. 9-2 isn’t very impressive when you look at how the teams they’ve played ended up this season — it doesn’t matter what was predicted. It was predicted that Tennessee wouldn’t suck, for example. Huh.
On the SEC vs. Everybody issue – The SEC seems to be perenially overrated… but not by nearly as much as some people think. I don’t fault the SEC itself for this fact, just like I don’t fault ND for taking a BCS game even though I don’t think they’ve earned one. The conference makes big bucks benefitting from the perception that it’s year-in-year-out the best in football (which is usually the storyline, excepting clear off-years like this season). I generally have the SEC as one of the top 3 conferences in the country each season, because there are some clearly good teams – though the bottom half of the conference doesn’t always inspire confidence, that’s usually true of almost any conference (I mean, maybe the Big 10 this season, but even they’ve got a couple of gimmie games).
As for the USC-Arkansas game – the reason that score gets bandied about so much is because of the media worship surrounding the Trojans. Even as a Pac-10 fan, I can recognize it (though it really doesn’t extend to the rest of the conference like some people seem to think it does). Putting up 70 on a BCS-conference team at the beginning of “OMG TEH UBERSEASON” is of course always impressive, but to act like scoring that much signifies the be-all end-all of sports reeks of… Wait for it… “19. Making the story, not reporting it.” Sound familiar? (In case it doesn’t, see the EDSBS post on ESPN et al) Gee, it’s almost like college football is influenced by the talking heads involved with the networks… Nahhhhh.
November 30th, 2005 at 6:25 pm
27
Stranko Montana says:
Nice comment Underbruin.
November 30th, 2005 at 6:29 pm
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rick says:
Stranko, I didn’t take from your poll that ND is a mediocre team, in fact I think 7th is a defensible place to put them. The mediocre part comes from many of the comments in this thread and from other blog polls with comments that they have no business being in a BCS game. As I’ve stated ad nauseum at this point, my issue is moving them down based on their win and leaving LSU alone based on theirs.
November 30th, 2005 at 6:32 pm
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rick says:
Maybe I’m reading a different comment thread than you, Underbruin, but I don’t believe anyone has used Notre Dame’s scheduling of 5 pre-season Top 25 / 3 pre-season Top 5 teams as a defense of their schedule strength this season. I certainly wouldn’t. It was brought up in the context of dumbass statements along the lines of ‘when will ND have a pair and join a rough tough conference.’ ND has very little control over the season of their opponents other than their game against them. But to try to make the contention that ND “doesn’t have a pair” because they don’t join a conference seems just a bit ludicrous after examing the schedules they at least attempt to create. Urban Meyer’s father sure seemed to think so given the comments he made a year ago this week.
November 30th, 2005 at 6:43 pm
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Plowhand says:
Obscure exception or two:
In the past three seasons Georgia is 3-0 against Wisconsin, Purdue, and Marshall, all of which hail a bit outside of the 5 state Southern vortex of circle-jerking mediocrity that you deem the SEC. Not to mention numerous out of conference wins against G. Tech, Clemson and Fla State.
Also, I seem to remember a probation afflicted Alabama taking the National Champion Oklahoma Sooners to the wire 2 years in a row. Do you give them credit for “making the effort” as well? Funny thing, I don’t remember the Alabama nation whining and sniveling for not getting more respect for those losses like you are doing now.
It’s OK that you hate the SEC, most of the country does, we are used to it. But you can’t seem to defend your reasons for it.
November 30th, 2005 at 7:00 pm
31
rick says:
The Wisconsin and Purdue games were both bowls (I thought I mentioned something about regular season – the point I was making was trying to play a national schedule after all and you don’t really ’schedule’ bowl games) and Marshall played in good old Athens, Georgia. I applaud Alabama for making it all the way to Norman one year, maybe there’s hope that they’ll schedule themselves above the Mason-Dixon line sometime this century. For the record I don’t believe I’ve once sniveled about the respect given Notre Dame or their poll ranking. I’ve sinveled about the ridiculously high ranking of LSU and the fact that SEC teams look like crap when they go out of confernce to play BCS schools.
November 30th, 2005 at 7:16 pm
32
Kevin says:
Where is Tennessee!!!
December 1st, 2005 at 12:48 am
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Schleprock says:
Alright, let’s get right down to it. The best reason to be hatin’ on the SEC is just what the thread suggests: its southern-fried, cousin-loving insularity. I mean, more than half the schools in the conference are downright frauds. You can call the Big Ten over-rated (and I usually do), but it’s at least a collection of some of the finest universities in the world, and the players (generally speaking) graduate. The SEC? Let’s see: Georgia, Florida, and Tennessee are cream of the crop. That’s sorry. Sorrier yet is the other end of the elephant. Mississippi? That’s a fraternity, not a university (apologies to all you Klan-lovin’ Kappa Alphas and Daddy’s little tea dresses). Mississippi State? Alabama? And what in THE HELL are Clemson and Auburn? The only creditable university of the whole bunch is Vanderbilt, and it, in exchange for having the temerity to field teams populated by actual students, regularly gets its shit handed to it. “Roll Tide,” “War Eagle,” or “Rocky Top,” boys–we all ain’t laughin’ with you, we’re all laughing AT you.
December 1st, 2005 at 1:31 am
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Chris Lawrence says:
Where to start in this one?
1. Yep, the SEC is down this year. Parity and probation kills, and rookie head coaches don’t help either.
2. That said, you don’t see a lot of conferences lining up to take visits to Death Valley, the Swamp, or Neyland.
3. Notre Dame’s crappy opponents are the result of them not breaking with tradition and mixing it up a little. The reality is that Notre Dame is in a conference: the “we play Notre Dame all the time conference.” When Notre Dame starts playing Texas, Oklahoma, or LSU on a regular basis, and rotates out perennial whipping boys like Navy and the Big East, we can talk.
4. Notre Dame was a couple of years of Ty Willingham away from joining a conference. Weis hit the reset button on that (I wouldn’t pass up a $14 mil undivided payout in the future if I thought I could do that), at least for now.
5. LSU is probably overrated at #4… but assuming they beat Georgia (which may be an assumption too far), it’s a fair ranking. Yes, the loss to the Vols is inexcusable, but it was one of those OT crapshoots that you really can’t put much stock in.
6. I do think the SEC needs to cut down on the cupcake OOC scheduling… though some of it is driven by politics and regional considerations. Not much excuse for bringing in I-AA teams, though, with the Sunbelt right next door (and probably, in the grand scheme of things, less of a threat than good I-AA teams).
And, it takes two to tango. Given the schellacking that Ole Miss has gotten in OOC games of late (Texas Tech, Wyoming), you’d think that there’d be “quality” teams from the majors lining up to take a shot at the Rebels and get some cred for taking on a major conference opponent… instead, they look forward to OOC opponents like Mizzou, UConn, and Wake Forest, which might be serious contenders if it were basketball we were talking about. And it cuts both ways: when’s any Big Ten school dragging its ass to Georgia or Auburn? Why should SEC teams head off to Big Ten country without a home-and-home?
December 1st, 2005 at 4:15 am
35
Underbruin says:
Stranko – Heh, thanks. I like to think I’m pretty balanced with how I look at college football, as I’ve watched enough different teams from different areas over the years that it’s hard to really be -too- much of a Pac-10 homer (I give it my best shot every once in a while, though).
Rick – I see where you’re coming from. I admit I skimmed through the comments a little bit. Still, I think the point stands as reasonably fair that they’ve played somewhat of a soft schedule this year. SOS is around 70th or so, I think, and and they benefit a LOT from having played SC… Though SOS numbers are fairly suspect to me, ‘cuz last I checked Texas was in the top of the country. Sure, OSU’s a very good team, but the rest of the teams they played were no good. I’ve never thought ND needed to ‘grow a pair,’ but I think there might be an argument in there about trying to get them to join a conference simply because it’s rather unfair to have them just floating around, especially with such an advantageous BCS setup. Plus, if they joined the Big 10, we could change that name to the “Big 12″ and change the current Big XII to “Little 12.” *grin*
That having been said, though, I think Chris’s contention that ND needs to stop playing “perennial whipping boys like Navy and the Big East” is a bit unfair. Every conference has their own two or three ‘gimme’ games for all the good teams (unless you’re UCLA, in which case you lose by 38 to Arizona … GAH). Notre Dame is no different – they scheduled what they figured would be a tough slate, and then Tennessee and Purdue laid big fat eggs, Michigan wasn’t nearly as good as advertised, and the mid-major teams were about as mediocre as usual. You mentioned Oklahoma – UCLA played them OOC and won handily – after OU got beat at home by TCU, and has gone on to a 4-loss season (rather reminiscent of Michigan, actually). Just because a team is a perennial power doesn’t mean they will be great when you play.
As a last note, to get in my Pac-10 homerism: “Why should SEC teams head off to Big Ten country without a home-and-home?” This isn’t directly addressing that comment, but more the ’scheduling’ issue at large. It seems to me that the Pac-10 has been making an effort to really try and schedule solid teams (well, some Pac-10 schools not located in Eugene, at least). Since 2000 UCLA has played OSU, Alabama twice, Michigan, Oklahoma twice, and is set up for a home and home with ND over the next few years, I believe. Everybody knows about USC’s games against Auburn – plus they’ve got the built-in ND game. Oregon State and Arizona State have both had the priviledge of losing to LSU in last-minute games recently, and so on and so forth.
Just saying, it looks like the Pac is trying to strengthen its scheduling reputation a bit. At least, to me.
December 1st, 2005 at 7:11 am
36
LD says:
The 12th game will change a whole lot when it comes to this SEC scheduling bitching, since now teams won’t be as restricted by OOC rivalries (UGA-GT, UF-FSU, USC-Clemson, etc) and neutral site games as much.
Already the SEC has road games lined up at Penn State (Ala), Georgia Tech (Ala), West Virginia (Aub), Colorado (UGA), Arizona State (UGA), Cincinnati (UGA), Clemson (UGA), Akron (UK), Arizona State (LSU), Tulane (LSU), Georgia Tech (Miss), Wake Forest (Miss), Clemson (Miss), West Virginia (MSU), UAB (MSU), North Carolina (USC), California (UT), UCLA (UT), Marshall (UT), North Carolina (UT), NC State (UT), Oklahoma (UT), Clemson (Vandy), Georgia Tech (Vandy).
Notre Dame and all Big Ten teams aren’t on that list though. Why are they so afraid to do a home-and-home with the SEC? It is plainly evident that they are chickens and afraid that losing to dumb hillbillies and rednecks would so alter their
realityperception of self worth that the resulting malaise would lead to rust covered jobless towns with radon houses and meth labs alternating on every street. Oh, wait…December 1st, 2005 at 10:38 am
37
LD says:
Aside from Penn State…
December 1st, 2005 at 10:39 am
38
Orson Swindle says:
Schleprock–Clemson is in the ACC.
December 1st, 2005 at 10:43 am
39
Schleprock says:
Well, move Clemson to the SEC, then. That’s where it belongs, with all those other gap-toothed, big-eared, banjo-playing schools. Trade them straight up for Vandy, which ought to be over with Duke and Carolina anyway.
December 1st, 2005 at 11:09 am
40
Rick says:
Georgia Tech (Ala), West Virginia, (Aub), Clemson (UGA), Tulane (LSU), Georgia Tech (Miss), Wake Forest (Miss), Clemson (Miss), West Virginia (MSU), UAB (MSU), Clemson (Vandy), Georgia Tech (Vandy).
Wow, you’re right. They’re really branching out and seeing the world. They ‘have a pair,’ they ‘get it.’
Why go to the Starbucks next to your office when you can go explore the one across the street?
December 1st, 2005 at 11:31 am
41
LD says:
You’re right, Rick. They totally shouldn’t play perennial bowl teams, like West Virginia, Clemson or Tech. Instead they should definitely “show they’ve got a pair” by visiting such distant locations such as Bloomington or Champaign and the impressively mediocre teams there.
When will people realize that traveling far does not equal traveling to play quality opponents?
And again, when is the Big 10 and Notre Dame coming on down South? Not on the schedule? No response? Hmm? Bueller?
December 1st, 2005 at 11:56 am
42
Shawn says:
I’m almost certain Notre Dame and Auburn have a home-and-home set up to start around 2010.
December 1st, 2005 at 12:00 pm
43
bryan says:
I have read most all of these messages and I just want to conclude with this message. The fact is that no team outside of the SEC would like to join a conference that year after year produces great teams and players. Yes, there are times when I have to question some of the crappy teams that show up on the schedules, but that is the same in all the conferences. The problem is some of the teams that are the crappy teams are right in the main conferences. Take the Pac-10, I would go as far as to say that 80% of the teams in the SEC could go undefeated in that conference. I mean who the hell do you play that is worth a damn.
i would also like to clear up the Notre Dame issue. There are times when Notre Dame has looked great this year and times when they really sucked. I think that are lucky to be ranked where there are this year and truthfully sometimes it seems like Notre Dame could lose five games and still be ranked in the top 25.
I just think people forget that the media picks there teams to go for and to be down on for the year. On ESPN and other channels some teams never lose that negative prospective and other teams no matter how bad they do they can’t lose that positive light.
December 1st, 2005 at 12:07 pm
44
Chris says:
To be fair, ND played in Neyland last year, and didn’t they have a series with LSU a few years back? I know Florida State and Georgia Tech aren’t SEC, but they are south, and ND played FSU in 02 and will be opening their season in Atlanta next year. However, we did just turn down a home-and-home against Auburn, so point to the haters there.
As far as the whole “not being in a conference means you’re scared” comment a while back, it’s been properly needled, but that was really a stupid point to be made. You can be in a conference and play a terrible schedule – Texas Tech, PSU – or be out of conference and play a tough one, such as ND, which can’t be blamed for other teams sucking. USC is a team that sets a good example of being in a solid conference, but still playing some rather marquee regular season opponents (Kansas State, @ Auburn, @ VT) along the way.
(Sorry for turning this into a less-informed BGS/more-informed NDNation, guys.)
December 1st, 2005 at 12:16 pm
45
Plowhand says:
Schlep, where did you go to school?
December 1st, 2005 at 12:23 pm
46
bryan says:
I hate to say it, but being a Auburn fan, there is no way that Notre Dame could ever hang in the SEC. I understand why they turned down a series with Auburn.
December 1st, 2005 at 12:39 pm
47
LD says:
Yeah, ND has been down south before, and those teams have traveled north too, which works against Rick’s argument, I’d say.
I listed all the SEC future scheduled games according to nationalchamps.net. Auburn-ND isn’t listed.
The point is that scheduling isn’t something to hang your hat on in comparing conferences. Schedules are set so far in advance nobody knows who will be good by the time they get around to playing. Hell, even relative strengths of schedule change over the course of one year alone (as ND is an example of).
Perfect example: Wisconsin schedules Bowling Green years ago when they’re basically a doormat in the MAC. BGSU gets Meyer and Omar, they become a good, respectable opponent. Coming into this year, BGSU looks pretty tough , and they end up giving a good game. Then BGSU loses several more games in the MAC. And by the end of the year, that same exact game has gone from doormat opponent to quality opponent to mediocre mid-major opponent.
Further, pointing fingers at the SEC for “never traveling” is a canard, since traveling alone doesn’t prove anything. Georgia’s got a scheduled road game at Cincinnati and a road game at Clemson. Guess which game I’m more interested in? You can show you’ve got “balls” by beating up the neighborhood bully just as much as by going across the country to beat up some other neighborhood bully.
This has come up far too many times, and been dealt with over and over again. “Your conference plays a weak schedule” is just an empty, meaningless statement that only seeks to make one feel better about his own inadequacies. Every conference, and every team, schedules strong opponents and weak opponents. And even then, they don’t really know how good or bad the opponent is going to be.
December 1st, 2005 at 1:02 pm
48
LD says:
And it looks like Notre Dame turned down that h-h with Auburn for a 4-3 with Rutgers.
December 1st, 2005 at 1:04 pm
49
Shawn says:
Sorry, you’re right. I was wrong on the Auburn series. To be fair though, ND has to play Rutgers due to it’s agreement with the Big East.
December 1st, 2005 at 1:13 pm
50
Rick says:
LD – Georgia Tech, Game 1 of next season.
December 1st, 2005 at 1:19 pm
51
LD says:
Not in the SEC (which is what you brought up with the circlejerk comment), but for the sake of argument, fine. One game out of however many “nonconference” games they get to schedule over the next decade. And Tech returns the favor, so that works against the argument that we don’t travel down here.
December 1st, 2005 at 1:32 pm
52
Rick says:
And again, when is the Big 10 and Notre Dame coming on down South?
December 1st, 2005 at 2:03 pm
53
rob says:
Schleprock, shut up. Real students? Maurice Clarett and that brain trust Andy Katzenmoyer seem to jump right out at me. Don’t say that our schools are better because yours suck because that makes it seem like you’ve never attended one yourself.
December 1st, 2005 at 2:39 pm
54
Zach says:
OK guys… to clear something up, ND is the one that dropped the Home and Home with Auburn. Rumors have Auburn trying to get a Home and Home with Maryland (i know it is ACC) but the SEC and Big 10 will not play each other in the regular season, because of the bowl matchups. Most of the bowl tie ins with the SEC are SEC/BIG 10. I agree that the SEC plays too many cupcakes, but it is not always the SEC teams fault. I do not see any team calling Auburn to play except USC wanted to play one game (this season) and it had to be at USC. Auburn is up grading Jordan-Hare Stadium and they have to have 7 home games to justify the cost. I am sure that everyone will continue bitch and moan about the SEC doing something wrong.
December 1st, 2005 at 4:34 pm
55
Underbruin says:
“Take the Pac-10, I would go as far as to say that 80% of the teams in the SEC could go undefeated in that conference. I mean who the hell do you play that is worth a damn.”
You could go as far as to say that. You’d be wrong, but hey, that’s never stopped people on the oh-so-moderated internet before. Saying “undefeated” alone is moronic because it ignores the 800-pound gorilla that is the Trojans. I think that this year, LSU or Auburn might, MIGHT have a shot at going undefeated. Florida had too many troubles mid-season, while injuries to Prothro and Shockley derailed the ‘Bama and UGA teams enough that they would have lost games as well. LSU can obviously be beaten by bad teams (at home, no less) – and they did struggle with ASU. I’m loathe to bring up “close losses” as proof that teams are comparable, and I won’t go that far, but I will say that it showed that SEC teams can be scored on, just like it showed that SEC offenses can score when playing Pac defenses. That leaves Auburn as a possible candidate this year to go undefeated, if they can play up to their level of football every week – which is very difficult to do.
People keep discounting how difficult it is to go undefeated – just look at UCLA. I know, I know, the team’s really not that good. But I CAN guarentee you that they’re a much better team than the Arizona Wildcats (UofA got manhandled by a Washington team that’s one of the worst in the country). Or take the aforementioned Auburn team – they lost at home against Georgia Tech. It’s true GTech’s a good team, but they weren’t playing all that well in the beginning of the season (they struggled against UNC and UConn, lost by 44 to VTech and then got beat at home by a mediocre NC State team).
December 1st, 2005 at 6:10 pm
56
Orson Swindle says:
We’ve encountered this fight in a few different variants here, most notably during the Sissy Boy Blogger slapfight of 2005 and its sequel, the Gas Huffing Incident.
December 1st, 2005 at 6:16 pm
57
Underbruin says:
I thought the GSBBS05 was about the Gang of Six?
Also, I think there’s a difference between saying that the SEC is a bad conference – which I don’t think – and saying that 9 or 10 SEC teams could go undefeated in the Pac-10 – which is just a teeensy bit overbord. Usually, the SEC is a better conference than the Pac-10 is. Like I said, not by as much as the polls seem to indicate, but they are better… it helps to have 12 teams, true, but it also helps that many of the teams in the SEC have a lot of football tradition which adds a ton in recruiting (and several non-traditional SEC powers have had major success in recent years, like UF).
Either way, the SEC generally is a very good conference – though I’m not sure that’s true this year, they’re not terrible, but I don’t think they’re better than the Pac-10 is (for example, I think Oregon and UCLA could all give any team in the SEC a pretty good game at the least – it’d be fun watching their offenses go up against SEC defenses, and vice versa).
Even if you disagree and think the SEC is still better this season, I find it very hard to believe that THIS year’s SEC is -so- much better that it’s out of the question, which bryan seems to do. That’s what I was responding to.
December 1st, 2005 at 6:38 pm
58
Schleprock says:
Actually, Rob, the point I’m trying to make is that Notre Dame regularly slates the toughest schedule of anybody in the land, and the notion that they feed off cupcakes is just horseshit.
Yes, they play Navy. They’ll always play Navy. The U.S. Navy saved the university during World War II, when it was in real danger of closing down, and so Navy has a game with ND as long as it wants. And should. (See the contrast here? The game exists as a perpetual payoff of a 60-year-old debt rather than a chance for some I-AA diploma mill to get a fat payoff as a tuneup for Fathead U.) Further, there’s real respect between the two, even though the one always wins. Witness this year, when the ND players went and stood with the Middies after the game. Ditto Air Force and (next year) Army. Fine, call them cupcakes, if you want, but the service academy players are the very best minds and bodies the nation has to offer (and trained killers to boot), and I’d sure as hell rather see my team play them than Western Michigan or Bowling Green or Idaho or some other sorry-assed collection of thick-headed never-will-be’s.
As for the rest of the schedule, ND has standing games with historical rivals Michigan, Michigan State, and Purdue, and (in the best intersectional rivalry in the land) of course with SC. Beyond that, they schedule home-and-home with anybody who has the stones to play them. The series are obviously scheduled sufficiently in advance that there’s no accounting for a down year. UT was decent last year, this year they sucked. This year ND played opponents from SEC, Big Ten, PAC 10, Big East, and WAC, as well as independent Navy. Within the past decade, their home-and-home opponents have included Miami & Penn State (before both pussied out and joined conferences), Florida State, Nebraska, Tennessee, Colorado, Washington, at times (and most times, at that) when all were top 20, and often top 10. Next year, UCLA, Penn State, and Georgia Tech come back on. (BC is back on in ‘07 and LSU in ‘09.) In fact, the Irish OPEN with Georgia Tech, Penn State, and Michigan, which they’ll play while every Big State U is warming up with the likes of Miami of Ohio. Now, in the event, some or all three of these teams may bite by August of next year. But, as it stands now, there isn’t ANYbody, ANYwhere who matches that. End of story.
Plowhard: You probably won’t be surprised to know that my degrees are from Notre Dame and Vanderbilt.
December 1st, 2005 at 7:09 pm
59
Zach says:
I see that someone posted about players in the NFL from the SEC. Do you know where i can find this kind of info?
December 1st, 2005 at 8:07 pm
60
Plowhand says:
Then you should know better than to refer to Tennessee as the creme of the academic crop in the SEC. Outrage! Get your orange hate on man!
December 1st, 2005 at 8:47 pm
61
Kevin says:
I know a number of Vandy football players. They’re just as dumb here as at any other university.
The University of Florida has a player who got a 1600 and I’ve heard from a bunch of girls there who are groupies that Urban is all bout the academics. Also, Florida has more scholar athletes than pretty much anywhere else.
December 1st, 2005 at 9:57 pm
62
Kevin says:
Also, now that I’ve read this, everyone arguing against the SEC being the best overall conference is an utter fool.
December 1st, 2005 at 10:04 pm
63
bryan says:
I can’t believe that there is someone out there who is actually taking a stand and saying that the SEC is not the best overall conference. If the SEC is not the best conference, then who the hell is. You sir are crazy.
December 2nd, 2005 at 11:11 am
64
RowdyRoddyPiper says:
Christ on a crutch. I really had no idea that people were so attached to the idea that their conference like totally rocks while everyone else blows. I pulled this together and posted in the bean-o thread, win pctg. conf vs. conf and it does look like there are a few weak ones out there, but there are also a couple where there appears to be no disticntion.
|||||||Big 10|SEC|Pac-10|ACC |Big-East| Big 12
Big 10| XXX |.511| .518|.637 | .679 |||.599
SEC||||.489 |XXX | .608|.541 | .623 |||.506
Pac-10|.482 |.392| XXX |.537 | .506 |||.437
ACC |||.363 |.459| .463| XXX | .580 |||.522
Big-Es|.321 |.377| .494|.420 | XXX |||.500
Big 12|.401 |.494| .563|.478 |.500 ||||XXX
I would like to point out that PSU had an h-h with Alabama for 2004-2005 but Alabama requested to move it back due to sanctions. Little did they realize our program would do it’s damndest to look like it got the death penalty, without actually getting it, in 2004. Hopefully we can get it back and going. I’d love to go to T-town to take in a game. To all of those who believe the SEC is without a doubt the best conference out there, nothing anyone is going to type will change your mind. I don’t think there’s enough evidence to do it anyway. There’s also no evidence to back up claims of unquestionable superiorty. If being reasonable isn’t your strong suit, so be it.
Schleprock: This whole entire Navy thing fascinates me. I’d heard this story of the Navy saving ND during WWII and really had a hard time picturing a) how the hell the navy got to South Bend in the first place b) why the Japanese decided that ND should be the focus of their attacks on mainland america. I guess financially saving it makes more sense.
I think it’s nonsensical to call PSU pussies for joining a conference and then cite three teams from said conference as proof ND schedules difficult opponents, if we were pussies we would have joined the Big East. I know you’re probably sick of all the “quit queerbaiting and join a conference” talk and I feel your pain. Anyone with two working brain cells knows that ND is not in a conference for exactly the same reason everyone else is in a conference, money. Until ND stops raking it in on its own (or until it gets sick of being identified as independent…just like Temple) ND will not join a conference. ND also has a fair degree of flexibility to schedule quality opponents. The amount earned from their exclusive contract with NBC is quite a bit more on a per school basis than anyone in a conference. This means they don’t have to schedule tomato cans that are willing to come to town for a few bucks and some national press. Given their deal with the BCS they’ve also managed to guarantee themselves a BCS payout for every 2 loss season. This is not criticism of ND, just pointing out that a brand like ND can operate in a much different way than anyone else. This is why we hate them
ADs don’t care if their own students think they’re gay and they really don’t care if some other university’s students think they’re gay. They have one job and that’s to make money for the school. That’s why conference alignments and schedules are the way they are. As a PSU alum and fan, I’m fired up for the PSU/ND home and home. I only wish we could have gotten a preview in the Fiesta.
For everyone crying about a 1 loss Oregon team getting bumped out of an at-large bid by a 9-2 Ohio State or ND, please write this down. Apparently people do care who you schedule OOC (in OSUs case) or in general (NDs case). Please consider this when Houston wants to come over and ya know…hang out and stuff.
December 3rd, 2005 at 3:34 am
65
Smartest Man Ever says:
Rick, I hate to break the news to you but you’re not exactly the “sharpest knife in the drawer.” SEC = Best conference on planet. I wish I could sugar coat it for you, but there is just no easy way to say it. I know you’re probably tearing up right now as you read this post. It’ll be okay. A lie repeated enough times eventually becomes truth right? Well, no it doesn’t. But I bet you’ll keep on anyways. Don’t say anything, just think about it. And by the way, don’t interpret this as a low blow, but Weis is a disguisting slob that has killed the Notre Dame program. Ty Willingham would have the Irish sitting at 10-1 right now. You can take that to the bank.
December 4th, 2005 at 1:02 am
66
Schleprock says:
RowdyRoddy: Thoughtful and entertaining. Story about ND and Navy during the war is true, though the real reason for the hook-up–likely that some Holy Cross father was butt buddies with some Navy pre-flight honcho–has never been revealed. As for ND and money, there’s some truth to what you’re saying, I’m sure, though folks need to keep in mind that the University is rich as Croesus already. Endowment is north of $3.5 billion (yes, that’s with a “B”), which puts it nearly in a league of its own among universities playing D1 football at a top-20 level (Stanford is nosing up against $9 million; SC is at $2.5 million). No, to understand ND you need to understand the extent to which what seems to be its arrogance is rooted in the chip it carries on its shoulder. I don’t think they’ve ever gotten over being blackballed from the Big Ten. And almost everything they do can, if viewed from that perspective, be looked at as having been intended as a finger to the rest of the non-Notre Dame world. Without that chip, there’s no distinguishing them from Duke, Northwestern, Southern Cal, Vandy, and a handful of others.
December 4th, 2005 at 8:39 pm